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Where’s the straw man?
Agreed that the left had shifted right. Don’t agree that lesser evil voting is the reason for this.
hmmm,
Im guilty to avoid vote sometimes just because of this personnaly,
In America (or anywhere else with a two party system), this can be understood through the Ratchet Effect.
I think this is actually understood fairly well which is why rhetoric like “both sides are the same” comes about because neither option moves things the other direction. FPTP two party system sucks.
The two party system is an inevitable result of a first past the post electoral system. Ranked choice/preference voting gives us a way out of this trap. https://truethevote.org/
I’d like to believe it’s fairly well understood, but tell it to the average liberal and you’ll get a lecture on Horseshoe Theory.
Thanks, TIL,
The road to hell is paved with “lesser evils”.
and with good intents 😪
I like it but I wish the enlightened centrist had more dumb shit to say, they have so many fantastic lines such as “there’s no real difference between right or left”
they are both evils, lmao, Humanists idea vs fascists idea, lawl,
We’re forced to play a rigged game. The only way to stop it requires too much risk/sacrifice. It’s easier to just survive. Not saying it’s right or wrong but the question we should ask ourselves is “what am I willing to give up to break this game?”
Pretty sure the ‘enlightened centrist’ in this meme represents the ‘leftwing’ party, does it not? That’s the party that ‘compromises’ when the Overton window moves right.
Everybody on the actual left is represented by the crying figure.
“the far left and the far right are the same. No I won’t support the far left and yes I will compromise with the far right. Why do you ask?”
Tghost qui post sur une commu francophone et les anglophones pensent que ça parle des US épisode 314
Les Anglophones qui viennent sur jlai.lu c’est vraiment un running gag
im really sorry ^^"
En plus oulala, ca vient l’instance du diable 😅,
Mais je trouve que cela resume exactement la situation francaise egalement, malheureusement.HS : d’ou le fait que je veuille pas etre defedere, tout n’est pas a jeter, apres chacun.e sa patience et la ou iel est pret a “s’investir”
Tkt c’est pas ta faute haha
TMTC for real 😅,
Je voulais faire l’analogie avec la situation francaise ofc,
Si le “centre” essaie de courtiser des gens qui sont a droite et que ça fonctionne, mais qu’à chaque fois ils ont à se déplacer de plus en plus à droite pour suivre le parti de droite qui fait la même chose, ça veut quand même dire que le parti de droite de trouve des nouveaux électeurs chaque fois qu’il se déplace, sinon on verrait ses votes diminuer à mesure que les électeurs tombent du bateau à gauche…
Sinon l’autre possibilité c’est que les électeurs ne font que suivre le parti à mesure qu’il se déplace à droite et qu’en fait c’est un mouvement futile sauf dans le but, comme l’image semble sous-entendre, de normaliser une pensée encore plus extrémiste…
Ou alors les électeurs sont plus volatiles que tu sembles le penser, ne votent pas nécessairement dans leur propre intérêt ni selon leurs idéaux, ne sont pas aussi informés qu’ils pourraient l’être, sont victimes d’un système qui joue sur des biais cognitifs pour leur faire croire que les centristes sont forcément raisonnables parce qu’ils sont au milieu, se font matraquer par un système médiatique qui suit des agendas différents du bien commun, etc.
Idem pour les partis centristes d’ailleurs. Y’a forcément une part de cynisme dans le fait de systématiquement courtiser les électeurs de droite en droitisant leur discours d’année en année tout en qualifiant tout ce qui est vaguement a leur gauche d’extrémistes ou de radicaux, quitte à renforcer la droite, mais je pense pas que ça soit le cas de la majorité d’entre eux qui pensent probablement sincèrement être simplement “raisonnables” et ne faire que suivre un mouvement de fond qui se fera avec ou sans eux. Malheureusement le résultat est le même peu importe l’intention : les positions de droite voire d’extrême-droite sont normalisées au fur et à mesure qu’elles sont adoptées par des gens qui ont une image de “raisonnables modérés”, et la fenêtre d’Overton se décale.
Tout a fait d’accord,
Ah yes, saying trump is worse is definitely DeFenDiNg GeNoCiDe
Wut ? 😶
I will need explanations here, sorry,Given that (practically) no one is defending genocide, maybe you can explain this image before I proceed?
Ok, i see,
No way,
Practically >> You are for this genocide so ? If not, and u see someone defending the genocide, make a report to got it ban,And btw, i dont want to talk about US policy,
Im more interested by posting here, to discuss with others french/europeans about what happen to us here.Cya, or no,
Okay, yes another “YoU lOvE gEnOciDe BeCaUsE wE dIsAgReE” bullshit. Cool, just what I thought was going on here.
Fucking shit, If ive asked you to explain me, its because maybe I didn’t understand you ? Or I’m not sure ?
I’m French, and I’m not in your head and English isn’t my primary language geez … And I’m far from the US politics and theirs specifics…So … You can be nice instead being an ass on this ? And explain me ?
I asked you to explain your image and you accused me of defending genocide so you’ve zero room to talk.
Lol you posted a comment about wich ive asked explanation. You evade by another question.
ReNamE YoUr SelF DiCkD@cY LuLZ LuLZ,Blocked, btw,
Voting for literally anyone enabling genocide is defending genocide
Ahh yes, engaging in harm reduction is the exact same as voting for genocide. I’m glad nuance is still alive and well in 2024.
“I don’t like genocide, so I’m going to enable the president who enabled the genocide in the first place, and has promised to make it even worse.”
You guys know the only reason Benny was confident enough to begin the ethnic cleansing was because Trump ended the nuclear agreement with Iran? And that the real goal of the Israeli state is to rope America into an all out war with Iran.
US foreign diplomacy is usually unanimously terrible, but the one issue they’ve actually differentiated with in the last few decades has been Iran.
Do you guys think it can’t get worse for the Arab world, or are you too busy virtue signaling to engage in meaningful harm reduction?
I mean, joe bided and Harris are soulless liberal ghouls, but they aren’t openly fascist. It’s like I’m talking to people in the Weimar Republic abstaining from voting because of the Namibian genocide, and then having them say Bruning is the same as Hitler.
It’s perfectly fine to condemn them for the genocide that’s currently happening, but falsely equivocating them as exactly the same does nothing but take away options from the people who are actually in harms way.
Okay. Those who effectively voted for the party who wants more genocide are explicitly supporting AND desiring genocide to happen then.
Yeah I get the sense that you have a very loose definition of the term “effectively”
Until a third party has any chance of winning whatsoever, voting third party helps the candidate you’re least aligned with. I have a feeling that you want to deny that basic truth.
This is what happens when the left doesn’t show up to vote because there aren’t any candidates far enough left in their opinion. The people that actually vote will be further right on the ideological spectrum and the right most candidate gets elected.
Fuck off with that. That’s what happens when people in the centre sacrifice everything to keep the liberal agenda going, even if it means fascism is the next step.
Liberals always make compromises with their right, and never with their left. That is the problem. The left is warning of the problem for decades.
In a democracy it is the voters who decide. If leftists want to stay home because Kamala isn’t far enough left then we all get fascism.
As if the party and politiciens who scheme, organise and communicate had absolutely no responsibility whatsoever. This is a fraud: liberals are never going to admit their responsibility in the rise of fascism because their whole philosophy is about denying their responsibility in anything. Fuck that. Liberals had all powers for so long, and yet they still refuse to see their own responsibility and in the US are blaming the leftists for the Trump victory.
Maybe don’t make all your strategy relying on leftists voting against fascism and sacrificing everything else next time.
It’s a politicians job to cater to the people who actually vote. Moderates vote so democrats cater to them.
Republicans took voters from democrats by running ads that blamed “radical leftists democrats and their progressive policies” for inflation and every other problem under the sun.
Along with the leftists that didn’t vote this was enough to give the win to facists.
This is how US politics ratchets to the right.
Because leftists don’t vote for politicians that must cater to more than just leftists to win.
Give me any reasonable source other than your ass that shows registered voters left of center stayed home instead of voting. I’d wager much more undecided centrists did, because they didn’t care which of the two right wing parties won. It would be an asspull as well, but mine at least has some reason behind it, while yours just blames the left for being bad and stupid and stinky.
It is based of the posts and comments here on lemmy from leftists claiming Harris lost because ‘the DNC wasn’t left enough’. Also all the leftists here on lemme leading up to the elections claiming that both sides are the same and that we should vote 3rd party.
Most people said that Kamala went right due to her and Biden capitulation of the border topic, that she attempted to outflank the GOP from the right, which polls show was a losing strategy. This is very different from the accused left wing purity testing, which barely happend this election cycle, because most outspoken people on the left absolutely supported voting for Harris despite not agreeing with her. I don’t know how tuned in you were on this side of the media landscape, but the messaging from the left was that Trump is hitlerian and will most likely want to imprison or kill people from the left, as all fascists in the past did once they took the power. The left in USA was never this alarmist and geared up to fight for their continued existence, so the idea that they instead stayed in homes as a show of protest is frankly unrealistic.
What I saw on lemmy past those few months was a shit ton of posts like this one - antagonizing the left and claiming that they won’t vote because of the Gaza genocide. Also a lot of other kinds of voter shaming or blackmail. I don’t know if it was maliciously botted or if DNC strategists actually thought it was a good idea - which I doubt - but continously mentioning the worst looking aspect of potential Harris presidency worked in Dems favour. And there, again, leftists argued that it was a losing strategy and that it will cost Harris voters more. They wanted some pressure to be put on Harris, so she would divert from this cataclysmic collision course. Barely anyone even spoke against voting for her at all. If your analysis of the sentiment in months leading to the elections pointed to that, you most likely had your head up your ass.
The left had everything to lose in those elections. They went and canvased for Harris despite not agreeing with her message. They tried to course correct the disastrous campaign she led, and often was met with unrelenting arrogance of the center claiming that nothing can or should be done with Dems messaging about Israel or the border. Topics of price gouging or feeding children, despite being popular with voters across the line were dropped almost immediately, and instead pro-corporate and business-as-usual messaging went out. The left repeatedly said that Dems would lose if they wont change, and now they did lose because they refused to do that.
I’m not even from the USA, so I wasn’t that exposed to the mainstream USA media, but I know this anti-leftist propaganda was also constantly droned in TV. I know however how the internet side of left wing media looked like, and it was almost unanonymous that everyone needed to go vote for Harris or else the democracy will die. And that’s why I’m fairly sure that your accusations of the left causing the Harris loss are bullshit - if anything, they were the people most concerned about it.
As for anyone actually calling to vote 3rd party, you surely do realise those were bots or paid shills, right? They never even went beyond in explaining the Jizz Stain policy the point of “unlike Harris she hates Jews”, and overall their attempts to convice anyone were very uninspiring. She did get 0.4% iirc, so someone did fall for that, but come on, you know that’s bullshit. The left absolutely did not support or endorse her.
The voices of “you should not vote for Harris” were very sparse, so you would be hard pressed to claim that they represented a significant portion of left wing users on lemmy. Those people complained instead about Harris fucking up, which she did, and now you’re blaming her loss on the left based on those aformentioned sparse voices instead of learning from the criticism of the vast majority of the people from the left. What you’re basicially claiming is that those 14% missing voters were result of leftist activism against Harris instead of the ineffective campaign, but I bet you also believe at the same time it would be dumb to listen to the left (that had apparently this much political power to sway so many voters) because listening to their advice at any point would weaken the DMC. So even if I was somehow wrong with my assesment of the internet left willingness to vote, your point that Dems lost because of the left would still be wrong, because if they could have possibly bridged the gap of 14%, then they absolutely should have been the target audience of the campaign, and Harris should have instead done everything the left asked of her instead of alienating them. I don’t believe that was the case, as again, the left was very motivated to vote for Harris, but if it was, it would only show how bad the Dems campaign was.
My legs got numb and I’m long done pooping so cheers, sorry for the long comment, I need to eat more fiber.
I agree with this guy, except:
Also all the leftists here on lemme leading up to the elections claiming that both sides are the same and that we should vote 3rd party.
A lot of those were Russians, and it was effective. They spread the “don’t vote Kamala” rhetoric, which didn’t require rationalising anything for Trump, just dismissing Kamala as “not-left-enough” so she loses votes meaning Trump wins, and Trump is Putler’s bumboy.
When Trump was first president, Putler contacts him and says “unless you give me everything I want we publish your piss videos”, Trump gives info on US spies and they start dropping like flies.
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-extracted-russia-spy-trump-classified-info-oval-office-2019-9
Trump is a traitorous cunt.
It’s funny because on the right you’ve got the incels who won’t date a woman because she has a mole on her leg, but then on the left you’ve got people who won’t vote for someone who meets 95% of their criteria.
What’s that quote, don’t let perfection stand in the way of progress or something
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good enough
Progressives fall apart, conservatives fall in line
Ouais enfin le problème c’est surtout que personne se bouge tant que pa situation est pas critique. Dans une situation comme ça, à moins d’aller en full révolution y’a pas grand chose d’autre à faire que limiter les dégats.
L’idéal étant d’avoir un système de vote qui n’est pas purement binaire hein, mais s’il l’est, le “je préfère rien faire et laisser les autres décider” aide pas vraiment.
Ou bien voter plutôt que daller dans ce genre de discours ? Mais bon propagande toussa C’est le but de ce schéma d’ailleurs. C’est pas spécialement la révolution qui est nécessaire. Enfin, ça dépend ce que l’on y met derrière.
Je te laisse voter pour le moindre mal donc visiblement ? Tu parles de situation, laquelle ? La dernière ligne ? La première ? Suffit de voir le traitement de lfi alors que c’est que des socs dem en majorité🙄
Dans une situation où le vote n’a d’impact qu’entre deux candidats, le moindre mal réduit la casse. Bien évidemment, si les gens considèrent que les nazis sont un moindre mal que d’être vaguement à gauche, ça ne marche pas, mais je pense que c’est principalement qu’ils sont eux-mêmes des nazis qui refusent de l’admettre.
Mais dans la situation aux Etats-Unis par exemple, une myriade de votants ont décidé de ne pas voter, pour ne pas succomber au “moindre mal”, ce qui a largement favorisé Trump. Et je pense pas que Trump crée une meileure situation que le “moindre mal”.
Après non, ce que je prône c’est surtout d’aller botter le cul des fachos et de changer le fonctionnement pourri des “démocraties” actuelles vu que le système de vote actuel est inutile et favorise les cons. Mais cette opposition au “moindre mal” tend à n’avoir aucun effet positif, et se base sur une vision idéaliste du vote qui n’a aucun lien avec la réalité pratique de celui-ci.
Dans une situation où le vote n’a d’impact qu’entre deux candidats, le moindre mal réduit la casse. Bien évidemment, si les gens considèrent que les nazis sont un moindre mal que d’être vaguement à gauche, ça ne marche pas, mais je pense que c’est principalement qu’ils sont eux-mêmes des nazis qui refusent de l’admettre.
Tout a fait d’accord,
Mais dans la situation aux Etats-Unis par exemple, une myriade de votants ont décidé de ne pas voter, pour ne pas succomber au “moindre mal”, ce qui a largement favorisé Trump. Et je pense pas que Trump crée une meileure situation que le “moindre mal”.
Effectivement, il y’avait aussi Jill pour qui voter apparemment, l’equivalent de l’extreme gauche de ce dessin, si j’ai bien compris aussi,
Après non, ce que je prône c’est surtout d’aller botter le cul des fachos et de changer le fonctionnement pourri des “démocraties” actuelles vu que le système de vote actuel est inutile et favorise les cons. Mais cette opposition au “moindre mal” tend à n’avoir aucun effet positif, et se base sur une vision idéaliste du vote qui n’a aucun lien avec la réalité pratique de celui-ci.
Encore, tout a fait d’accords,
Seulement ces enfoires de fachos sont proteges par la police et le systeme, et les opposants en GAV si ce n’est plus…
😰Apres, avec ce dessin,
Je parle pas des US, mais de la France, voir l’europe (cf les matchs de foot avec Israel),J’ai pris l’exemple récent des US car il représente un cas assez extrême (mais qui se propage vite à l’europe) où le choix est soit le moindre mal, soit négligeable (pour ce qui est de l’action par le vote), et où l’on voit une vague de “les deux côtés sont mauvais, je vote pas pour le moindre mal et j’attends juste que ça passe” très néfaste car elle prone l’inaction totale.
Après oui, cette excuse du moindre mal a été utilisée pour justifier de laisser la droite gagner, mais je pense que ce n’est pas dû à une question de moindre mal, mais à une hypocrisie consistant à comparer la gauche aux nazis. Quand appliquée par des gens honnêtes, la stratégie du moindre mal reste meilleure que l’inaction.
Mais j’avoue que je me suis focalisé principalement sur le côté américain, étant donnée la quantité d’information qui inonde tout l’internet en ce moment sur le sujet. En France, le dessin représente mieux l’hypocrisie qu’on a pu voir récemment comparant l’union de gauche à Hitler.
