You can’t use this cop-out like it’s a joke whenever it’s rhetorically convenient for you, especially when you said in the comments that you completely meant it.
[Yes, I was baited again despite earlier doing the healthy thing of disengaging, that much is not on you]
Then what the fuck do you say “it’s a meme” for? What useful information does that convey? Because clearly you’re serious about it and have been told that that response comes off as you saying “it’s just a joke bro”
Look mate, “it’s a meme” means it’s not going to be particularly nuanced in its criticism. It’s meant to ellicit cheap laughs through simplifying some parts. Y’all have a brain, you can certainly see which parts are exagerrated for these purposes. Your comrades were certainly capable of starting nuanced discussions about Catalonia based on this understanding.
Honestly, I think you are all playing dumb in order to get some gotchas.
I have no interest in gotchas, what I am seeking is a clear and consistent position. Obviously others who know more about the Spanish Civil War know that it’s depiction of Stalin as killing anarchists rather than merely supplying them with 75% of their tanks and no more is a wild misrepresentation, and you still have yet to clarify who the “intellectuals” in Mao’s case even refer to.
My further point is that this bizarre blanket characterization of MLs as butchers, including of people that they did nothing but help, is gross historical revisionism pandering to the preconceptions of people who frankly have next to zero historical understanding when it comes to the groups it refers to. It is in fact poor conduct to stand by such a message whether it is “just a meme” or communicated by any other medium, just as I am very careful to limit my accusations of, say, Nestor Makhno only to what the most sympathetic of biographers admit of him (since I personally do not know about the proof of other claims).
I don’t particularly have to play by your personal rules. For me the original meme is exagerrating historic events (I already explained why) in order to make a simple point “Don’t believe in left unity and be wary of tankies”. This is the part I agree with. And before you ask, I don’t have to justify myself to anyone, especially when they’re typical condescending MLs.
I left the comments open so y’all can counter all the claims in the meme in as much depth you want. I literally gave you full platform access. Y’all prefer to use it to shitpost instead 🤷
You are accusing someone of killing people that he did nothing but help, but simply helped inadequately.
You have no idea who the “intellectuals” even are, do you?
If you’re a leftist, don’t you think promoting red scare myths is probably bad for understanding history.
Edit: I will repeat what I said a while ago that I have never said that you have to do anything. It is a classic deflection to change the question of what you should do to what you can do. You can do anything you want, deny the Holocaust to own the tankies, I can’t stop you, but that doesn’t mean you should.
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
If you’re a leftist, don’t you think promoting red scare myths is probably bad for understanding history.
I don’t know how many times I have explained what “this is a meme” means. It’s never going to be perfectly accurate or nuanced. There’s plenty examples of tankies directly sabotaging and killing anarchists which makes many many anarchists not trust left unity. I don’t understand why this is such a difficult idea to maintain.
You shouldn’t need to fabricate history to make that point then. The difference between “not giving someone enough tanks” and “summarily executing them” is not merely a matter of “perfect nuance and accuracy”, it is a morbid fantasy.
Also it’s just sort of poor form to make claims about things you have no idea about, like Mao and the “intellectuals”
Lastly, I’ll repost the late second edit you probably missed from earlier:
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
There’s plenty examples of tankies directly sabotaging and killing anarchists
Then put those on the meme instead of the blatant falsehoods that are there. Like, sorry, but “oh, it’s a meme it doesn’t have to be accurate” is a terrible argument for posting a misleading, anti-communist meme. Just make a better meme, it’s not hard
You can’t use this cop-out like it’s a joke whenever it’s rhetorically convenient for you, especially when you said in the comments that you completely meant it.
[Yes, I was baited again despite earlier doing the healthy thing of disengaging, that much is not on you]
Yes I did mean not to trust tankies.
Then what the fuck do you say “it’s a meme” for? What useful information does that convey? Because clearly you’re serious about it and have been told that that response comes off as you saying “it’s just a joke bro”
Look mate, “it’s a meme” means it’s not going to be particularly nuanced in its criticism. It’s meant to ellicit cheap laughs through simplifying some parts. Y’all have a brain, you can certainly see which parts are exagerrated for these purposes. Your comrades were certainly capable of starting nuanced discussions about Catalonia based on this understanding.
Honestly, I think you are all playing dumb in order to get some gotchas.
I have no interest in gotchas, what I am seeking is a clear and consistent position. Obviously others who know more about the Spanish Civil War know that it’s depiction of Stalin as killing anarchists rather than merely supplying them with 75% of their tanks and no more is a wild misrepresentation, and you still have yet to clarify who the “intellectuals” in Mao’s case even refer to.
My further point is that this bizarre blanket characterization of MLs as butchers, including of people that they did nothing but help, is gross historical revisionism pandering to the preconceptions of people who frankly have next to zero historical understanding when it comes to the groups it refers to. It is in fact poor conduct to stand by such a message whether it is “just a meme” or communicated by any other medium, just as I am very careful to limit my accusations of, say, Nestor Makhno only to what the most sympathetic of biographers admit of him (since I personally do not know about the proof of other claims).
I don’t particularly have to play by your personal rules. For me the original meme is exagerrating historic events (I already explained why) in order to make a simple point “Don’t believe in left unity and be wary of tankies”. This is the part I agree with. And before you ask, I don’t have to justify myself to anyone, especially when they’re typical condescending MLs.
I left the comments open so y’all can counter all the claims in the meme in as much depth you want. I literally gave you full platform access. Y’all prefer to use it to shitpost instead 🤷
You are accusing someone of killing people that he did nothing but help, but simply helped inadequately.
You have no idea who the “intellectuals” even are, do you?
If you’re a leftist, don’t you think promoting red scare myths is probably bad for understanding history.
Edit: I will repeat what I said a while ago that I have never said that you have to do anything. It is a classic deflection to change the question of what you should do to what you can do. You can do anything you want, deny the Holocaust to own the tankies, I can’t stop you, but that doesn’t mean you should.
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
I don’t know how many times I have explained what “this is a meme” means. It’s never going to be perfectly accurate or nuanced. There’s plenty examples of tankies directly sabotaging and killing anarchists which makes many many anarchists not trust left unity. I don’t understand why this is such a difficult idea to maintain.
You shouldn’t need to fabricate history to make that point then. The difference between “not giving someone enough tanks” and “summarily executing them” is not merely a matter of “perfect nuance and accuracy”, it is a morbid fantasy.
Also it’s just sort of poor form to make claims about things you have no idea about, like Mao and the “intellectuals”
Lastly, I’ll repost the late second edit you probably missed from earlier:
Then put those on the meme instead of the blatant falsehoods that are there. Like, sorry, but “oh, it’s a meme it doesn’t have to be accurate” is a terrible argument for posting a misleading, anti-communist meme. Just make a better meme, it’s not hard