I do know the history of Catalonia. I just don’t want to debate it.
Sorry, I was giving you benefit of the doubt, see then my earlier point about spreading complete fabrications
Man, it was going to well until now, don’t start making me ridicule you again…
I could have phrased it in a nicer way, but I thought what I said got to the point more succintly. On reflection, I was incorrect and I apologize for that. Let me try again with more diplomacy:
You are being very non-specific. Did you have a bad time with an ML org or even multiple ML organizations? Did they treat you poorly?* Then foo on them! They were probably Trots just because of our social context (or Bob Avakian’s cult that calls itself maoist but also seems more consistent with Trotskyism). But whatever they were, including ML in the sense I’d agree to, they shouldn’t have done that.
However, that would not justify the portrayal as butchers, especially using completely fabricated events.
*If my guess was wrong, please correct me.
My reaction to patronizing behaviour is ridicule. Way funnier.
If I wasn’t clear enough, ridiculing someone for being patronizing is perfectly reasonable behavior. However, accusing someone of mass murder when they were merely patronizing is decidedly unreasonable.
Sorry, I was giving you benefit of the doubt, see then my earlier point about spreading complete fabrications
And then see my earlier point about exagerrations for the sake of a meme etc etc.
You are being very non-specific. Did you have a bad time with an ML org or even multiple ML organizations? Did they treat you poorly?* Then foo on them! They were probably Trots just because of our social context (or Bob Avakian’s cult that calls itself maoist but also seems more consistent with Trotskyism). But whatever they were, including ML in the sense I’d agree to, they shouldn’t have done that.
I am Greek. I have access to ML orgs which is way more advanced than what you see in US and at the same time also very much stuck on the past.
Let’s just say that my experiences show me how hypocritical MLs are and what they really think about “left unity”.
If I wasn’t clear enough, ridiculing someone for being patronizing is perfectly reasonable behavior. However, accusing someone of mass murder when they were merely patronizing is decidedly unreasonable.
I didn’t engage anyone in such a way. You are way too stuck on the literal interpretation of the meme when I’ve already explained multiple times what my actual position on MLs is. So what is the end point here? Are you trying to make me apolgize for posting that specific meme or what?
And then see my earlier point about exagerrations for the sake of a meme etc etc.
And then see my response about how going from “merely gives you 75% of your tanks, along with other supplies” to “summarily executes you” is not merely “inaccurate” but fully a historically revisionist fantasy. Someone doing something you disagree with is not a blank check to just accuse them of whatever you want. Stalin being a homophobe (which was bad) is not equivalent to him dropping nuclear bombs on France, and depicting one as the other would do nothing but promote a red scare myths if one existed of him doing that, as one does exist for Catalonia
French anarchists are historically mostly adventurist trash, but I would not depict them in a firing squad shooting MLs if no such killing occurred (and to my knowledge, none did).
Your excuse is further undermined by the fact that the meme does depict some killings that literally did occur, including by the Bolsheviks against anarchists in what would be the USSR. It makes no sense to say that some of the cases are meant to be metaphors when this is the basis.
I am Greek. I have access to ML orgs which is way more advanced than what you see in US and at the same time also very much stuck on the past.
Let’s just say that my experiences show me how hypocritical MLs are and what they really think about “left unity”.
Progress! See, I generally have great respect for Greek anarchists and I have no knowledge of Greek MLs except the haziest memory of cold war conflicts (and one election you guys had like a decade ago where I think there was a surprisingly high-profile ML candidate), so I will simply take your word for it.
Here’s the thing: if you just condemned Greek MLs, I would have nothing to say. Hell, if you condemned American MLs, I would at best have very little to say. Neither of these are the same as condemning all MLs.
I hate Trotskyism, from the man himself to his modern spawn, but this is limited to the imperial core. There are many movements in Latin America that at least partially came from Trotskyism, with some even maintaining the name, and I support them! I unequivocally support them! To my knowledge, what they represent overwhelmingly is a historically progressive force, and that is what matters. Trots in white countries overwhelmingly represent a force of opportunism, and that is why I condemn them even to the point of running afoul of moderation policies (check the mod log if you like).
I do not hate anarchism this way, I think its nature is highly variable place to place but that it usually ends up mainly being ineffective rather than reactionary. Nonetheless, sometimes it works and there are things to learn from it, as I discussed before with Mao studying anarchism.
In France, historically, anarchism has been pretty reactionary, what with “propaganda of the deed” and all that adventurist bullshit. In that respect, I condemn French anarchism, though even there I won’t write them off completely for all time.
What I am getting at is that you are making an unreasonable generalization. Perhaps Greek MLs all suck, but they do not speak for MLs from every time and place, and many of us seek to learn from the past but ultimately and with total sincerity are mainly concerned with the present and future.
I’m being long-winded, so I’ll leave it there, but I hope you consider this aspect of your perspective.
Sorry, I was giving you benefit of the doubt, see then my earlier point about spreading complete fabrications
I could have phrased it in a nicer way, but I thought what I said got to the point more succintly. On reflection, I was incorrect and I apologize for that. Let me try again with more diplomacy:
You are being very non-specific. Did you have a bad time with an ML org or even multiple ML organizations? Did they treat you poorly?* Then foo on them! They were probably Trots just because of our social context (or Bob Avakian’s cult that calls itself maoist but also seems more consistent with Trotskyism). But whatever they were, including ML in the sense I’d agree to, they shouldn’t have done that.
However, that would not justify the portrayal as butchers, especially using completely fabricated events.
*If my guess was wrong, please correct me.
If I wasn’t clear enough, ridiculing someone for being patronizing is perfectly reasonable behavior. However, accusing someone of mass murder when they were merely patronizing is decidedly unreasonable.
And then see my earlier point about exagerrations for the sake of a meme etc etc.
I am Greek. I have access to ML orgs which is way more advanced than what you see in US and at the same time also very much stuck on the past.
Let’s just say that my experiences show me how hypocritical MLs are and what they really think about “left unity”.
I didn’t engage anyone in such a way. You are way too stuck on the literal interpretation of the meme when I’ve already explained multiple times what my actual position on MLs is. So what is the end point here? Are you trying to make me apolgize for posting that specific meme or what?
And then see my response about how going from “merely gives you 75% of your tanks, along with other supplies” to “summarily executes you” is not merely “inaccurate” but fully a historically revisionist fantasy. Someone doing something you disagree with is not a blank check to just accuse them of whatever you want. Stalin being a homophobe (which was bad) is not equivalent to him dropping nuclear bombs on France, and depicting one as the other would do nothing but promote a red scare myths if one existed of him doing that, as one does exist for Catalonia
French anarchists are historically mostly adventurist trash, but I would not depict them in a firing squad shooting MLs if no such killing occurred (and to my knowledge, none did).
Your excuse is further undermined by the fact that the meme does depict some killings that literally did occur, including by the Bolsheviks against anarchists in what would be the USSR. It makes no sense to say that some of the cases are meant to be metaphors when this is the basis.
Progress! See, I generally have great respect for Greek anarchists and I have no knowledge of Greek MLs except the haziest memory of cold war conflicts (and one election you guys had like a decade ago where I think there was a surprisingly high-profile ML candidate), so I will simply take your word for it.
Here’s the thing: if you just condemned Greek MLs, I would have nothing to say. Hell, if you condemned American MLs, I would at best have very little to say. Neither of these are the same as condemning all MLs.
I hate Trotskyism, from the man himself to his modern spawn, but this is limited to the imperial core. There are many movements in Latin America that at least partially came from Trotskyism, with some even maintaining the name, and I support them! I unequivocally support them! To my knowledge, what they represent overwhelmingly is a historically progressive force, and that is what matters. Trots in white countries overwhelmingly represent a force of opportunism, and that is why I condemn them even to the point of running afoul of moderation policies (check the mod log if you like).
I do not hate anarchism this way, I think its nature is highly variable place to place but that it usually ends up mainly being ineffective rather than reactionary. Nonetheless, sometimes it works and there are things to learn from it, as I discussed before with Mao studying anarchism.
In France, historically, anarchism has been pretty reactionary, what with “propaganda of the deed” and all that adventurist bullshit. In that respect, I condemn French anarchism, though even there I won’t write them off completely for all time.
What I am getting at is that you are making an unreasonable generalization. Perhaps Greek MLs all suck, but they do not speak for MLs from every time and place, and many of us seek to learn from the past but ultimately and with total sincerity are mainly concerned with the present and future.
I’m being long-winded, so I’ll leave it there, but I hope you consider this aspect of your perspective.