My belief is this all comes down to austerity. We have poorer people, a much poorer health service (physical and mental health), less benefits, less money for teachers, less money for social workers, less money for police, less job opportunities, less pay, higher rent, higher costs etc across the board but especially worse in poorer areas. This is a society on the verge of collapse and we’re seeing signs of it everywhere.
Happy families and happy kids want to engage with other people, learn things and be part of a community. What makes them happy - enough money for shelter, food and basic necessities without worry of where the money for rent is going to come from or having to use a food bank. I’ve been there and when you are struggling it’s hard to care for the wider society / community. Thankfully I didn’t have kids eating up that stress which they will easily pick up on.
Right. There is such thing as a social contract. In that people will generally be conforming members of society if they believe they’re getting a fair shot at life.
If we don’t feel like we are getting a fair shot and the game is rigged against us, then you get rebellion, an increase in crime and anti-social behaviour.
Also because of the reasons you’ve said it means theres also no consequences to actions any more because of stretched public services
While this is all true, and I agree that it is a big part of it, the lack of actual consequences for the worst behaved kids at schools is why schools are struggling. You used to be able to properly expel children instead you now exclude, and unless its exceptional circumstances you have to take them back if no other school will take them. Even in the event of exceptional circumstances the kid has a legal right to education so the LA has to provide this somewhere, usually in isolation at the same school, which drags resources from elsewhere from a very limited budget.
Going back far enough and we used to have schools for this group of children that they would get transferred to who had the staff ratios and skills to deal with them properly but they mostly got shut or moved private as part of this change.
Once the kids work out that there are no consequences to their action what do you think will happen?
Couple this with kids who do not belong at a standard school because of behavioural and learning disabilities because there are not enough places at specialist schools and/or their parents straight up refuse to have them diagnosed (and the primary school deliberately omitted it from the hand over) and you end up with way too many kids who are next to impossible to manage.
I am talking about kids who you are not allowed to make loud noises in the class room, or boys that are not allowed to sit next to girls because they get grabby, or kids that throw chairs at teachers, or kids that bring knifes to school, or sell drugs. Without the schools that are geared up to handle them, and a robust process to move them to these schools that takes weeks not terms to do this is not going to get better.
That still mostly comes down to austerity. The services these kids need aren’t available.
The ability to properly expel happened a few years before Osborne became chancellor, and the schools started shutting around then as well. Osbourne accelerated the process but hes not the initial architect of this problem.
Originally it was sold as every child is entitled to an education, and the very worst kids were not getting one. There have been subsequent judgements against LAs/Gov based around the 98 rights act, particularly A2P1 and there were cases before that as well.
You also had schools booting kids out around exam season just to improve their grade average, but like another over played boogeyman benefit scroungers the actual amount doing this was very low.
So austerity has made it worse, but it is not the cause of this problem.
While this is all true, and I agree that it is a big part of it, the lack of actual consequences for the worst behaved kids at schools is why schools are struggling. You used to be able to properly expel children instead you now exclude, and unless its exceptional circumstances you have to take them back if no other school will take them.
We had poor houses not long before this also. People are expected to hold 2 jobs just to live these days. You cannot work long hours and look after kids at the same time. It is this sort of selfish attitude that has empowered the Tories to push the standards as far as we see now. We don’t need a race to the bottom.
Other parents manage it in the same area, same backgrounds. Besides once kids get to this point in secondary school its usually too late to intervene in place as the behaviours have become in grained.
Cameron cancelling sure start due to his dislike of the state telling parents what to do caused a lot of the long term behaviour problems we are experiencing. However even if you reintroduced it bigger and better than it ever was it still takes around a decade before it showing real improvement at secondary school.
What we need is solutions for the existing cohort, and frankly hand waving what is causing mass disruption for students that actually want to work, lowering their life time outcomes, is not addressing the problem giving them a free pass.
You could introduce UBI tomorrow or double minium wage and it would do next to fuck all for this problem. The parents do not give a shit, and/or do not have the skills, and/or the kids are too far gone to fix the majority of the problem.
Other parents manage it in the same area
What a pathetic privileged attitude to have. Some people have no issues in life at all. Being born to the right parents should not be a metric for the benefits you receive in society. You really have no idea the problems some have to face.
I grew up in a deprived area. Both my parents were alcoholics. I grew up learning how to survive the hard way. But I got a lucky break early on. I have paid my way since I was 20 and retired on my own cash at 55. My kids have absolutely no idea what that sort of life entails. This idea that you can put people down because they lost out on the genetic lottery is incredibly insulting.
It is easy to throw a dishonest person into prison and ignore the issue. What a lot do not realise is that honesty comes with security. A lot of people cannot afford to be honest, because they are struggling just to live. To break this cycle, it takes commitment from government to educate and facilitate that move away from this. Something sadly lacking from today’s government, and the people who support them.
As for your comments regrading UBI. I see you provide nothing to back that claim up. Let me help you.
Investing in society makes everyone richer. There are a huge amount of studies that prove this. Accepting that some people are just not worth the effort is a very small minded selfish attitude to have. Instead of believing the crap that the Tory media promote do some research.
Your link says nothing about improving outcomes of existing secondary school children just that they attend school more. The two are not directly linked, the worst children often have the highest attendance and are often the first ones there and the last to leave as their home life is so bad.
Its also a pathetic privileged attitude to assume that all of these kids are poor.
Equating prison with expelling kids to behavioural schools is just pathetic as well.
F+ for trolling, at least I hope thats what it is.
Your link says nothing about improving outcomes of existing secondary school children just that they attend school more. The two are not directly linked, the worst children often have the highest attendance and are often the first ones there and the last to leave as their home life is so bad.
What gibberish is this? Can you back this up with any evidence? Kids attending school is a benefit. To state anything other than that is beyond crass. I left school without any qualifications at all. I got my qualifications after leaving home. I actively avoided scrutiny at school because it is embarrassing to be forced into confronting the situation I was living in. Again you have absolutely no idea.
You declared these people poor when you stated
Other parents manage it in the same area, same backgrounds.
Equating prison with expelling kids to behavioural schools is just pathetic as well.
I did not. I stated that some find it acceptable to avoid the issue by locking people up. There is a prevalent attitude to penalise being poor and needy. Where as robbing the country of millions is acceptable and something we should support. Imagine how people would be helped by the money Michelle Mone grabbed from the tax payer.
To state anything other than that is beyond crass.
Never stated that, please try harder, always stated they should be sent to the correct school for their needs.
Actually you did that first:
We had poor houses not long before this also. People are expected to hold 2 jobs just to live these days. You cannot work long hours and look after kids at the same time. It is this sort of selfish attitude that has empowered the Tories to push the standards as far as we see now. We don’t need a race to the bottom.
I’m revising your trolling rating to a U its that bad.
Do you believe children act out for no reason?
If not, do you think it prudent to ascertain why someone is acting out?
If so, do you believe that the last decade of austerity impedes the ability to ascertain the reasons?
Do you believe that kids never acted out before austerity? Or is it something that only happened because of austerity?
Do you think that schools don’t try to engage with the kids and parents and get told to fuck off? That parents refuse to get their kids diagnosed for autism or ADHD? Refuse to have them medicated as directed by their doctor or sent to the correct school?
Do you think schools have gotten worse at behaviour management strategies or have they actually got access to far more approaches than before?
I actually think it’s far easier to get issues such as autism and ADHD diagnosed as a child in the last ten years if you can actually get an appointment.
Pretending that it’s down to austerity when the problems existed and made worse before due to the government of time not wanting to fall foul of ECHR and its own supreme court is just bad. Has it accelerated yes, but created by? Absolutely not.
Do you believe that kids never acted out before austerity? Or is it something that only happened because of austerity?
No. But I do believe that austerity has exacerbated the issue. If alcohol didn’t exist people would still assault other people, but with alcohol it happens more, as an example.
Do you think that schools don’t try to engage with the kids and parents and get told to fuck off?
I think they do, but not to the level that is required due to austerity cuts to education budgets. Parents telling teachers to fuck off is not acceptable. In fact I know this happens as my mother is a TA on a rough estate where this happens. This can also be linked to austerity and a lack of faith in a system that fails so many. Google what happens when people lose faith and break the so called social contract.
That parents refuse to get their kids diagnosed for autism or ADHD? Refuse to have them medicated as directed by their doctor or sent to the correct school?
Many parents just don’t know or are themselves not educated enough to want to change. I was diagnosed with ADHD in later life and honestly the symptoms of left unchecked are hard to distinguish from a failure or lazy person.
Do you think schools have gotten worse at behaviour management strategies or have they actually got access to far more approaches than before?
Both. They have access to a wealth of information, but lack the resource of time to implement it.
I actually think it’s far easier to get issues such as autism and ADHD diagnosed as a child in the last ten years if you can actually get an appointment.
I was in perpetual depression, addiction and losing job after job and was never marked as needed assistance. Only when I lucked into a good job with private healthcare was I able to seek help and sort my life out. Even now that I’ve left there to my dream career with no healthcare it’s taken a year to be referred to the NHS and that’s with a diagnosis.
Pretending that it’s down to austerity when the problems existed and made worse before due to the government of time not wanting to fall foul of ECHR and its own supreme court is just bad. Has it accelerated yes, but created by? Absolutely not.
Nobody is trying to place the blame solely on austerity, but it’s been a large contributing factor.
I do appreciate you answering my questions with your own and not answering mine.
I answered them with my own, best way to deal with such obvious bad faith leading questions.
I cannot stand the pretence that the issue wasn’t already here before austerity. I have mentioned in other responses already including the one you just replied to about the impact of austerity so you are getting mad at nothing here. For example, lack of specialist schools to send them to I have mentioned a few times now.
What caused the most harm was Cameron’s hard on for sure start despite the good progress it was having with long term behaviour improvements. He fully intended to gut it before the 2008 crash so it would have happened with or without austerity.
Shit parents produce shit kids who become shit parents in the main. Sure start interrupted that process.
When compared to the “old 90’s style” of learning around the subject, and looking at exciting ways to work with and interpret materials, by passionate teachers who make the process engaging and interesting - what is it about overworked, undersupported staff at underfunded schools, owned by for-profit Academy groups, and teaching Michael Gove’s “learn a mindless list of things and repeat what the teacher said” that’s failing to engage students?
Partner is a teacher in a deprived area and parents have physically engaged with teachers on more than one occasion.
But even in my job which has a publicly known phone number people are finding it perfectly reasonable to shout down the phone despite nothing having gone wrong with their process.
People are getting more aggressive and it’ll be a mixture of things. Partially cos everything is fucked, but also, certainly in my case, things like Amazon have changed people’s expectations. They get something the next day, if they don’t like it they get a voucher no questions asked, or if they want they can scam the system.
Works fine for Amazon, doesn’t work fine of you try to force that business model onto already stretched public services. If they’re told their kid isn’t behaving or performing they’ll go on the attack and act like a shitty customer rather than a parent.
It isn’t just schools - behaviour in universities isn’t stellar at the moment. The fees system has helped create a lot of entitlement (students assume they’ve paid for the pass), and a lot of students have missed that key formative experience of how to learn in a group due to COVID disruption.
What is interesting is even international students are acting out, which suggests a problem beyond the UK’s awful living conditions. What is notable is that students are (measurably) weaker in terms of basic ability when entering university, and the resulting frustration from this may explain some of their part in this tragedy.
Honestly the first set of students coming in at undergrad after covid that I had were simultaneously wonderful and also felt about 2 years behind where they usually are socially. It was a bit of a struggle getting them to properly sit down and think. They did absolutely thrive when you got them going though (with some kinda more experimental pedagogy) so I do still have hope.
I’m sure this isn’t just a UK problem, I’m sure many countries are reporting worsening behaviour in parents, which filters down to the children. I know it’s been a problem for a while where I am!
I really feel for the students now with the high fees. They’re paying so much more money to get a degree than older generations. They need to because any half decent graduate job needs a degree with at least a 2.1, so they feel like they don’t have a choice but know they are paying for the certificate rather than an education really.
It doesn’t excuse shitty behaviour and entitlement but I don’t think it’s fair to just blame them. The social contract is broken, they are still kids trying to figure out the world, they are used to being spoon fed exam questions at school, they are worried about climate change, the old people in power suck, they were really messed up by covid and the future looks pretty bleak.
By the way, that graduate job pays less than it did for older generations, in some cases a lot less as companies have taken advantage of the apprenticeship scheme by getting rid of higher paying grad jobs to the unliveable pay they get. By the way, in my profession, all the apprentices seem to have degrees as the competition is so high. They also come with a worse pension, worse benefits and worse pathway to promotions. That job will barely cover increasing rents if you’re lucky enough, let alone allow you to build up a deposit for unaffordable housing.
At my highly rated course at a red brick uni, I’d say about a quarter of my lecturers were actually good teachers, about half were sort of OK and another quarter really sucked. You can tell they were there for the research and resented teaching. I paid £3k a year for the privilege of that so was slightly annoyed. If I was paying £9k or whatever it is, I’d be pretty pissed off.
The university system is broken with all the research targets, funding issues, low pay, etc.
All of this adds together to make it a shitty time for everyone! Now I’ve depressed myself for the day…
Let’s just remind people that this is not a place where they choose to go, but a place where they are forced to go, and then people hold them to a behaviour standard that they never agreed to.
It’s an interesting point and appeals to my anarchist tendencies, but was it not broadly agreed that adults take decisions on behalf of minors, because an accumulation of experience and wisdom make them better equipped so to do ?
And was it not also broadly agreed that in the absence of a suitable adult, society would take those decisions, as best they could, for such children ?
Of course, one size does not fit all, but as was recently highlighted by pandemic, a great many children are, tragically, much safer in school than not.
If school as an institution were replaced, we’d still face those problems, I think.
accumulation of experience and wisdom
Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence. :P
Of course, one size does not fit all
I suppose that’s the root of the issue with our approach to education. If schooling is mandatory then it should also be mandatory to properly meet each child’s individual needs, but in practice that doesn’t happen. As a result many children reject school and achieve poor outcomes from it.
Let’s just remind ourselves that socialising and educating kids is always going to involve them doing things that they don’t want to do.
Not sure I’m entirely with you on that one; what’s the alternative to schooling kids so that they achieve autonomy and how do you propose to make them fit in a society where is seems important to have compatibility between everyone’s behaviour if not by pushing them towards a standard ?
Right? This is “playing music loudly on the public bus because I never agreed to be quiet” energy
a place where they are forced to go, and then people hold them to a behaviour standard that they never agreed to.
You are correct. School does prepare children for adult life, employment and responsibilities.
Can you imagine what would happen if it was up to the kids to decide if they went to school? Haha…
Part of the function of school is to get you used to doing things you don’t want to do. You’ll be donning bland clothes and going to a grey, depressing building every day once you’re an adult too.
Calm down there Che Guevara
The behaviour standards in school are much lower than in real life. In school telling your teacher to fuck off might get a demerit, or a warning, maybe isolation or in repeated circumstances suspension.
Telling your boss at McDonalds to fuck off will mean you don’t work there any more.
Wait, not bullying, not disrupting others etc is something we have to ask consent for now?
who cares if they agree to it, they are kids, they dont know how they should behave.
…Like you realise most secondary schools have the set of responsibilities and expectations on a single page that the child will sign in year 7, right?
It’s basically just symbolic and of course you can choose to not sign it and will still go to the school, but to say that they never agreed to it, atleast in my experience is a stretch. Though obviously there is a lot more nuance in this conversation.
The reality is underfunding of both schools, as well as sports/youth clubs, the schools being unable to make effective punishments, and parents not caring what their child gets up to both online and in school likely are the key things to blame.
Plus the effect on the psyche of children growing up in a world which they know is fucked and seeing genuinely so little to improve it probably doesn’t help.
That bullshit piece of paper seemingly everyone signs is, in my opinion, the dumbest thing there is. As a child you are effectively forced to sign said document, and as a minor you really can’t enter into binding agreements anyway. Both of which do not improve the ‘legality’ of those documents.
I was fairly well behaved, I’d say, but I never felt any sort of reason to specifically follow that guide, especially as it was forced on us. I expect a lot of other more self-aware children feel similar when still in school.
Overall it’s just a symptom of the proper resources missing.
It’s not a legal contract. A business has no obligation to allow you on the premises so a code of conduct is expected, there’s an unwritten one for every business you go into. Schools just take time to explain theirs.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Headteachers in England have described a culture of non-compliance among pupils, as talks were held to try to avert further strikes at a school in Kent where staff walked out over student behaviour.
The Oasis Academy Isle of Sheppey hit the headlines last week after members of the National Education Union took strike action over fears for their safety, complaining of assaults and threats of violence.
Unmet special needs, mental health issues and persistent post-pandemic absence are all creating tensions in schools, which can result in breaches of the behaviour code.
Suspensions and permanent exclusions are up in his school too, not generally for big one-off incidents but for an accumulation of episodes of non-compliance.
Wendy Exton, national executive member of the NASUWT teaching union, was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder after working in a pupil referral unit.
A Department for Education spokesperson said: “It is vital that schools manage pupils’ behaviour well so they can provide calm, safe and supportive environments.
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