Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday introduced a bill to establish a standard four-day workweek in the United States without any reduction in pay. The bill, over a four-year period, would lowe…
As a European libertarian, americans and people in some far eastern countries work at their jobs way too much. It’s harmful in every kind of way imaginable. I don’t understand why it’s done.
I get that some profession may benefit from it, but having standard office personnel sit at their desk 12 hours every day? What the fuck. I refuse to believe this improves company profits in 90% of the companies.
Same here. I did a complete carreer change from STEM (robotics engineering) into visual arts, and I’m happier than ever, but the intense mental work required means I do ~4 hours of actual developed work a day, then spend the next 4-6 hours doing the art equivalent of menial work (fixing the quality of small lines, slightly tweaking colours etc)
Hey that’s interesting! I have a degree in computer science and work as a software developer but also a masters in visual arts (photography). I never managed to break free from my developer gig, because of the financial stability it provides, but I already burned out, recovered and feel it’s an endless cycle. Like you, doing art made me so happy and it bothers me every day I can’t seem to get my life turned around in that direction.
Do you have any tips in that regard? How did you get started? Did you transition softly or just quit your job there and then? And what then? Did you have network? Can you live off your art?
I have so many questions, please point this fellow STEM in the right direction to break free :)
I’m sorry to say that I don’t have a lot of advice to give. I just got so fed up one day, that I decided the risk of starving to death wasn’t enough to stop me from changing fields.
How did you get started?
I built a small portfolio, anything I could get together and had some level of quality really. As artists we’re often harsh on ourselves, but the average person interested in commissions and freelance projects will be surprisingly undiscerning of your flaws, so don’t be too picky. Just make sure they’re finished art pieces, that’s what clients care most about. Then I made a profile in every social network/ freelance site I could think of.
Did you have network?
Nope, as we say in Brazil, I just “exposed my face to be slapped”.
Can you live off your art?
Barely, but yes - and the payout increases over time, as you get more comfortable, skilled and learn which corners you can cut without affecting the artwork. Keep in mind my cost of living is probably significantly lower than yours if you live in America or Europe.
I honestly don’t recommend following my footsteps - being more patient and building your artistic profile over a period, say one year, is almost certainly a better bet. Also, please don’t just quit without having the cash to sustain yourself for a while, in case things don’t pan out well.
Thanks man for the elaborate (and honest) answer! You often hear stories about how people just quit their jobs and magically everything will work out for them. It’s good to hear a more realistic view!
Im working 40, and in recent memory went thru long stretches of 60+, and also 0, when i was privileged enough to take a bit of extra time between jobs.
In my “free” time, i work on the art my heart wont let me not make. When working 40, i can manage an extra 10 hrs (maybe) on a good week doing the shit i actually feel im supposed to do. When i worked 65, i hardly did shit some weeks, other weeks id feel proud of 3 hrs. Youd think i could then manage 60, or 50, or at least 40 when unemployed then, right?
Lol, try 25 as a stretch goal. When u actually believe in ur work and want to give problems the time they deserve and the details the attention they need, you find that you get burned out pretty damn fast. Any more and the effort slips.
Granted, im not counting breaks in that number. If i work 4 hrs one day, i might do it in some 45 minute chunks, 1 ninety minute chunk, with numerous 15 minute breaks and 1 lasting between 90-120.
I get that ymmv, but im typically extolled (read: exploited) as a very hard worker in all my jobs, and we’re talking about the difference between working on the things that my soul demands versus what is typically rote, menial BS.
What the fuck. I refuse to believe this improves company profits in 90% of the companies.
It doesn’t. Hundreds of industry studies have been done, and they all point to the same conclusion. 40 hours of work is the absolute maximum you can squeeze out of a worker before you start to see productivity and quality take a sharp nosedive. Doesn’t matter if you’re a factory worker or an office drone, fatigue will set in and give increasingly diminished returns for every hour over that. 40 hour work weeks only became the standard across the United States because of Henry Ford actually listening to the people doing these studies.
I think part of the reason we haven’t shifted more towards a more balanced 30 hour work week despite the absolutely massive increase in productivity thanks to computerization and automation is because management positions attract individuals who strongly believe that more effort = more results, and that probably rings true for managerial positions where the most alpha-minded ones who work extra hard above and beyond the job’s expectations are the ones to typically get the promotions and thus become industry leaders themselves in time.
Consider how much time people spend on Facebook or TikTok or whatever while on the job. Consider how much time is spent “looking busy” when in reality you might just be dragging out the task you are on so that you are not assigned more busywork. This is all a product of people having jobs that demand they be present and paid for 40 hours worth of labor, but a great deal of it is “performative labor” where they are not actually producing, but can’t afford to clock out early because wages are based on how long you are at work, and rarely commission based, so there’s no incentive to produce more for the same pay so long as you are meeting expectations/quotas.
It’s been repeatedly shown to decrease company profits. As people work longer hours they amount of stuff they get done declines rapidly as they get tired. Their error rate also dramatically increases. This causes a rapid decline in overall productivity.
The issue is people believe that working longer hours is more productive in those cultures. Sadly people usually make decisions based upon unfounded beliefs not provable facts.
People also stress out and burn out more easily, which takes a toll on their health, which not only further reduces productivity, but also increases otherwise unnecessary medical costs
A coworker “above me” (we don’t have titles at this job so we can’t determine our value) just said the other day: “I don’t get this generation. Imagine calling out because you don’t feel well in my time? You went to work because you needed it, you cough and people know to stay the fuck away from you. If you called out you would just get fired and the job would keep chugging.”
That’s viewed as a GOOD place to work at by some fucking insane people… America is the land of the blind slave.
or y’know people trying to support and feed themselves and/or their families and hoping to somehow scrounge up enough savings to be able to lose it all for medical reasons or on a house
yes because the modern worker who is in the group that would be most directly affected by Sanders’ proposal were involved in building the current work culture in america and totally have a choice about participating in it today.
You are clearly not trying to “discuss anything”. Making glib generalizations and dismissing major reasons why people work excessive hours shows you would rather victim blame than actually have a discussion. And if you believe most Americans are “proud to work for overlords”, then you are buying into the overlords propaganda.
As a European libertarian, americans and people in some far eastern countries work at their jobs way too much. It’s harmful in every kind of way imaginable. I don’t understand why it’s done.
I get that some profession may benefit from it, but having standard office personnel sit at their desk 12 hours every day? What the fuck. I refuse to believe this improves company profits in 90% of the companies.
I’m self employed.
There’s an infinite amount of work for me to do, but like most professions its intellectually, emotionally and mentally taxing.
Honestly, I can’t do much more than 4 hours of real actual work per day.
Same here. I did a complete carreer change from STEM (robotics engineering) into visual arts, and I’m happier than ever, but the intense mental work required means I do ~4 hours of actual developed work a day, then spend the next 4-6 hours doing the art equivalent of menial work (fixing the quality of small lines, slightly tweaking colours etc)
Hey that’s interesting! I have a degree in computer science and work as a software developer but also a masters in visual arts (photography). I never managed to break free from my developer gig, because of the financial stability it provides, but I already burned out, recovered and feel it’s an endless cycle. Like you, doing art made me so happy and it bothers me every day I can’t seem to get my life turned around in that direction.
Do you have any tips in that regard? How did you get started? Did you transition softly or just quit your job there and then? And what then? Did you have network? Can you live off your art?
I have so many questions, please point this fellow STEM in the right direction to break free :)
I’m sorry to say that I don’t have a lot of advice to give. I just got so fed up one day, that I decided the risk of starving to death wasn’t enough to stop me from changing fields.
I built a small portfolio, anything I could get together and had some level of quality really. As artists we’re often harsh on ourselves, but the average person interested in commissions and freelance projects will be surprisingly undiscerning of your flaws, so don’t be too picky. Just make sure they’re finished art pieces, that’s what clients care most about. Then I made a profile in every social network/ freelance site I could think of.
Nope, as we say in Brazil, I just “exposed my face to be slapped”.
Barely, but yes - and the payout increases over time, as you get more comfortable, skilled and learn which corners you can cut without affecting the artwork. Keep in mind my cost of living is probably significantly lower than yours if you live in America or Europe.
I honestly don’t recommend following my footsteps - being more patient and building your artistic profile over a period, say one year, is almost certainly a better bet. Also, please don’t just quit without having the cash to sustain yourself for a while, in case things don’t pan out well.
Thanks man for the elaborate (and honest) answer! You often hear stories about how people just quit their jobs and magically everything will work out for them. It’s good to hear a more realistic view!
Real actual work you say?
Im working 40, and in recent memory went thru long stretches of 60+, and also 0, when i was privileged enough to take a bit of extra time between jobs.
In my “free” time, i work on the art my heart wont let me not make. When working 40, i can manage an extra 10 hrs (maybe) on a good week doing the shit i actually feel im supposed to do. When i worked 65, i hardly did shit some weeks, other weeks id feel proud of 3 hrs. Youd think i could then manage 60, or 50, or at least 40 when unemployed then, right?
Lol, try 25 as a stretch goal. When u actually believe in ur work and want to give problems the time they deserve and the details the attention they need, you find that you get burned out pretty damn fast. Any more and the effort slips.
Granted, im not counting breaks in that number. If i work 4 hrs one day, i might do it in some 45 minute chunks, 1 ninety minute chunk, with numerous 15 minute breaks and 1 lasting between 90-120.
I get that ymmv, but im typically extolled (read: exploited) as a very hard worker in all my jobs, and we’re talking about the difference between working on the things that my soul demands versus what is typically rote, menial BS.
That’s an interesting summation and more or less my experience.
Like I can rack up 60 hours doing “stuff”, but the complex stuff where I’m really producing the most value is capped at 20 or 25 hours a week.
That’s more than most employees do in a day, and often they have less say in the impact of it.
It doesn’t. Hundreds of industry studies have been done, and they all point to the same conclusion. 40 hours of work is the absolute maximum you can squeeze out of a worker before you start to see productivity and quality take a sharp nosedive. Doesn’t matter if you’re a factory worker or an office drone, fatigue will set in and give increasingly diminished returns for every hour over that. 40 hour work weeks only became the standard across the United States because of Henry Ford actually listening to the people doing these studies.
I think part of the reason we haven’t shifted more towards a more balanced 30 hour work week despite the absolutely massive increase in productivity thanks to computerization and automation is because management positions attract individuals who strongly believe that more effort = more results, and that probably rings true for managerial positions where the most alpha-minded ones who work extra hard above and beyond the job’s expectations are the ones to typically get the promotions and thus become industry leaders themselves in time.
Consider how much time people spend on Facebook or TikTok or whatever while on the job. Consider how much time is spent “looking busy” when in reality you might just be dragging out the task you are on so that you are not assigned more busywork. This is all a product of people having jobs that demand they be present and paid for 40 hours worth of labor, but a great deal of it is “performative labor” where they are not actually producing, but can’t afford to clock out early because wages are based on how long you are at work, and rarely commission based, so there’s no incentive to produce more for the same pay so long as you are meeting expectations/quotas.
It’s been repeatedly shown to decrease company profits. As people work longer hours they amount of stuff they get done declines rapidly as they get tired. Their error rate also dramatically increases. This causes a rapid decline in overall productivity.
The issue is people believe that working longer hours is more productive in those cultures. Sadly people usually make decisions based upon unfounded beliefs not provable facts.
People also stress out and burn out more easily, which takes a toll on their health, which not only further reduces productivity, but also increases otherwise unnecessary medical costs
A coworker “above me” (we don’t have titles at this job so we can’t determine our value) just said the other day: “I don’t get this generation. Imagine calling out because you don’t feel well in my time? You went to work because you needed it, you cough and people know to stay the fuck away from you. If you called out you would just get fired and the job would keep chugging.”
That’s viewed as a GOOD place to work at by some fucking insane people… America is the land of the blind slave.
“That’s how you get pandemics.”
Useful idiots proud to work for their overlords.
or y’know people trying to support and feed themselves and/or their families and hoping to somehow scrounge up enough savings to be able to lose it all for medical reasons or on a house
We’re discussing why they choose to structure society that way.
These arguments have been going on for generations, and Americans tend to be useful idiots proud to work for their overlords.
yes because the modern worker who is in the group that would be most directly affected by Sanders’ proposal were involved in building the current work culture in america and totally have a choice about participating in it today.
…what? Are you being sarcastic?
I think you spend too much time on these forums and you’re playing leapfrog with yourself.
Try to be more direct and clear about what you want to say.
Own your argument!
Ask questions if you’re confused. Follow your own advice before giving it out.
The first thing I asked was a question…
What topic of their post was your question about?
You are clearly not trying to “discuss anything”. Making glib generalizations and dismissing major reasons why people work excessive hours shows you would rather victim blame than actually have a discussion. And if you believe most Americans are “proud to work for overlords”, then you are buying into the overlords propaganda.
Yes, but the question is why the overlords choose to do this when it doesn’t benefit them in any way.
Many people work 12h shifts but that’s not super common in office jobs.