Hello comrades, I read a comment on a post either on lemmygrad or hexbear talking about how most discourse happening was of poor quality and indicative of a lack of genuine leftist groups in the imperial core. Basically if there were patty’s with some teeth they would enforce party discipline and education and that would lead to higher quality discourse online.
I also read some of Lenins2ndcat’s comments which were very patient when they were interacting with users from other communities.
Is there anyway to work on like, an online party discipline? Or like having users who are very good at discussing with libs have a more concerted approach to their interactions? It really seems that much of us are often too aggressive and meme-y and as fun as that is it really isn’t productive.
I get that this isn’t how praxis or anything happens, it seems more like the way we engage could be more productive and fruitful in the long term and considerations like this might go a long way.
TL;DR Planned economy but for memeposting
In a comment below you wrote:
Maybe a lemmygrad strike force?
Can’t say I like the sound of this. It’s the kind of thing that will get us defederated from other instances for brigading. It’s asking us to do the exact thing that Hexbear is accused of potentially doing, which has led for it to be pre-emptively defederated from dotworld.
If liberals want to learn and are open about it, they will do so; but most libs don’t want to and they often see us as arseholes when we go to other instances and talk about reality. If this happens organically, fine. But to try to organise it… I’m not so sure it will be successful.
Part of the problem is that if libs don’t want to think critically, they absolutely will cry and whine about every logical fallacy under the sun without thinking. Part of the problem is the material conditions of the global north audience, most of whom are labour aristocrats (we’ve had some good discussions about that if you search for them). Those who are open to new ideas are going to listen anyway.
As for dunking on libs, Marxists dunk on each other all the time for liberal tendencies. And rightly so. It’s a constant struggle. The difficulty with libs is that they have internalised liberalism, so criticising liberalism can feel like a personal attack. MLs tend to take it with thanks for being shown the error of their ways.
For those liberals who are looking for a way to understand the contradictions in liberalism and their material reality, dunking and ribbing won’t put them off because they are already looking for a mental way out. The dunking and ribbing makes it something to laugh about; it’s much easier to take than e.g. a detailed review, an outline and critique of every premise in an argument, and a grammar correction; the (good) literature on pedagogy suggests the latter will never work.
I can see how it would be useful for us to talk about how to engage with others, to spot wreckers, trolls, etc, and distinguish them from the good faith users. We’ve been doing that for some time already. And just by engaging with the increasing influx of liberals to the lemmyverse, I think those of us who do engage on and outside Lemmygrad have got better at it. But this is often more about knowing the audience than changing how we say things.
I think if we try to force any kind of rules or discipline beyond those that already exist we risk, among other things:
- tone policing (which is in direct opposition to the type of expression that we should cultivate in ML spaces)
- accepting some truth to the argument that we’re rude or unconcerned with intellectual, rigorous discussion (which is false)
- ostracising users who prefer to shitpost and dunk on libs (which let’s face it is fun and a worthy cause)
- ostracising those who are earlier in their Marxist journey (by creating a intimidating threshold for participation)
- turning this into work, as in labour (I like it here because there’s a mix of theory and people just making me laugh or having pleasant conversations without the need to self-censor. For me, it’s enough that LG is a space where I can enjoy the company of other MLs)
As others have said, there’s a good community here, which took time to build. I would caution against implementing any kind of policy about how we should engage or what we should engage about. Especially at the moment, where federation is bringing some wider changes. I noticed that many Hexbear users were concerned about federation changing their culture, too. So it’s a broader concern.
While I hope it doesn’t change the atmosphere here, too much (there will surely be some change), one of the things I’m looking forward to about federating with Hexbear is seeing more shitposting on their communities. Comic praxis is still praxis.
Further, while you may have heard someone “talking about how most discourse happening was of poor quality and indicative of a lack of genuine leftist groups in the imperial core[,]” that does not make it true. The quality of discourse on LG is high. What might be true is that not everything is about theory, etc; but that’s because we’re all already talking on the same page.
There’s no need to keep going through the basics in every community unless libs turn up. Elsewhere on the internet, ML forums degenerate into either 101 or dunking spaces. That’s not necessary here (although it does happen as well) because every community builds on the same common understanding, which is taken as granted; the discussion can start at a more mature Marxist place. This may give the impression that e.g. there’s no discussion of theory (due to a lack of imperial core organising or otherwise) but it’s a false impression, I think.
It’s also important to know that while westerners are probably still the majority, here, the ratio is far better and there are a significant number of users from the global south. Further, the westerners here tend to be MLs, not ’western’ Marxists. Which means conversations are built on different assumptions than is common to see in the west. Many people here aren’t interested in e.g. US politics, which means there is less analysis of US party politics than a typical western radical might expect to find in a political forum. It doesn’t meant the political theory isn’t happening.
To be clear, I am all for education and educating. I just don’t think it needs to be explicitly organised on here unless it’s through a voluntary thing, perhaps on a dedicated community. Personally, I’d probably rather just do my own thing in that regard. I quite like the balance that we already have.
Thanks for the response. I don’t agree with your point in tone policing. There are some of us here, myself included, who are much easier to harm with crude language and pejorative words. You can see examples of it to the responses I have made in this thread and the good faith responses I have made and the vote counts on those comments. I have already been quite hurt. There is already policy and ways which the community operates and how individuals conduct themselves if not explicitly than implicitly. If we’ve set a lower bound for this generally and in specific cases (as in interacting with other communities) I would argue subsequent changes are inevitable and necessary to protect the more vulnerable and sensitive members of this community and any community. If it really is inevitable, it makes sense to plan it out in some capacity.
I believe what you said about what pedagogy says, though this is a big claim to make and such claims require proportional evidence. Could you please provide me with some resources if possible?
Tone policing is a logical fallacy. From Wikipedia (footnotes and links removed):
A tone argument (also called tone policing) is a type of ad hominem aimed at the tone of an argument instead of its factual or logical content in order to dismiss a person’s argument. Ignoring the truth or falsity of a statement, a tone argument instead focuses on the emotion with which it is expressed. This is a logical fallacy because a person can be angry while still being rational. Nonetheless, a tone argument may be useful when responding to a statement that itself does not have rational content, such as an appeal to emotion.
The notion of tone policing became widespread in U.S. social activist circles by the mid-2010s. It was widely disseminated in a 2015 comic issued by the Everyday Feminism website. Activists have argued that tone policing has been regularly employed against feminist and anti-racism advocates, criticizing the way that they presented their arguments rather than engaging with the arguments themselves.
Literature-wise for grammar correction, see e.g.:
- Truscott, J. (1996). The case against grammar correction in L2 writing classes. Language Learning, 46, 327–369.
- Truscott, J. (1999). The case for “The case against grammar correction in L2 writing classes”: A response to Ferris. Journal of Second Language Writing, 8 (2), 111–122.
- http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/truscott,_the_effectiveness_of_error_correction....pdf
- http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/books/principles_and_practice.pdf, pages 116ff
- Icy Lee, ‘L2 writing teachers’ perspectives, practices and problems regarding error feedback’ Assessing Writing 8 (2003) 216–237
- https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9781139524742, chapter 5.
- https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1540-4781.1980.tb05188.x
Also look up:
- self-determination theory
- constructivism (and Vygotsky)
- constructive feedback
It’s also worth noting that most pedagogy is written for people teaching students who (theoretically) want to learn. That doesn’t apply neatly online, which means the pedagogy scholarship may have to be adapted and conclusions must be drawn with this assumption stripped out.
Yeah I think what you mentioned makes sense. I would argue your characterization falls into the often encountered issue with any cartesian, syllogistic, or otherwise self-described ‘rational’ logic & reasoning [1]. Essentially anything with only 2 truth states, while not intrinsic, appears to be tended towards.
I hadn’t actually encountered those parts of vygotsky’s work, thanks for the suggestion!
[1] Emotions are completely rational, see Randolph M. Nesse’s seminal paper (though he is an evolutionary psychologist/psychiatrist so take what he says with a whop of salt) and perhaps watch a lecture by him, there are several recorded seminars on ytube. I’d have to find the one I like, if you want a suggestion I can def find it for ya.
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The more fundamental liberal point of view espoused as far as I understand (please feel free to correct me, I don’t claim to have a genuine understanding of your argument) is the lack of engagement with the material reality of emotions, their function, and adequate descriptions of their specific role without dismissing them out of hand. This leads from the ‘Age of Reason’/‘Age of Enlightenment’ thinking, and deviates towards the kind of fantastical liberty argues by Stuart Mill, Madison, etc.
Nesse’s explanation of emotions–which appear ‘irrational’ or ‘inappropriate’ insofar as they do not appear to give the best outcomes for the emotional individual–as ‘smoke detectors’ works quite well. It ascribes function and meaning and makes the debate not one on qualifications of emotions as something to dismiss readily. To clarify what I mean, let me quote you, emphasis and footnotes are mine:
[…] …aimed at the tone of an argument instead of its factual or logical content [2] in order to dismiss a person’s argument. Ignoring the truth or falsity of a statement [3], a tone argument instead focuses on the emotion [4] with which it is expressed. […]
Instead the claim levied is erroneous on the parts I footnoted. The first [2] is the argument is the qualification of ad hominem which I disagree with. To keep it short, if the tone is relevant to the conditions in which the argument is made, then it is prima facie possible to affect the content of the argument. Arguments regarding it must be investigated, to use a phrase by Mao.
Then the one highlighting the tone themselves may be pointing out a subtle and apparently non-rational aspect. The difficulty in understanding the claim by the recipient or other parties is then for the sake of convenience considered ad hominem as it is not considered central to the argument. You can see here and you must know that fallaciousness is circumscribed and used as a useful heuristic, they are interpreted and not as clear as for example you have used it. The claim of fallaciousness obviously needs to be argued (which you certainly did, I am not claiming you did not) and a simple claim towards it is not sufficient in the least unless we will say it is agreed upon by the parties engaged in argument. Dismissal by arguing it is ad hominem does not disqualify all arguments with emotions as a focal point, and neither does dismissal of the ‘null hypothesis’ or particular case necessarily lend positive enforcement to other theses espoused.
Then I vehemently disagree with the categorization of ‘factual’ or ‘logical’ made, with a few qualifications. I understand factual as meaning an evidential claim with empirical evidence, or a claim which can be argued naïvely, and readily agreed upon. The common refrain is:
- Socrates is a man
- Socrates is a philosopher
- Therefore all men are philosophers
I consider this for the purposes of an argument, to be considered true only for the purposes of the argument, i.e. to further elucidate some point. Another example with an emphasis on on the empirical aspect:
- There is a cat
- There is a mat below the cat
- The cat is sitting
- Therefore the cat is sitting on a mat
Then if the fallaciousness is circumscribed as follows (again please correct me, I assume I am incorrect and wrong, I just want to show where my thinking is to make it easier for you to share with me & to correct and brainworms):
- Person A is making an argument
- Person B comments on the perceived qualitative expression of Person A, i.e. on their alleged emotional state, i.e. on a physiological process which intrinsically has communicative affects towards others
- Person B states or attempts to argue the emotional state has some importance in the context of the argument made by Person A
- Person A states that this is not true, that their emotional state is unrelated, and that Person B is committing the fallacy of ad hominem
Here is where I have a problem. Stating that it is unrelated or untrue is the beginning of an argument or the thesis and it does not stand on itself, truthfully here I consider the statement [3] to be relevant. Truth or falsity may not be correctly argued by Person B, and it is not as though there cannot be an argument which is readily arguable by means of the emotive state of an involved party. For example:
- Person C states that they hate migrants entering into the country which they have citizenship of and which they reside
- Person C appears to Person D that they are afraid and angry
- Person D asks why Person C is afraid or angry
- Person C says it is not relevant in any meaningful way to their prior statements
- Person D asks why they hate migrants entering into their country of residence
- Person C states they take jobs away from the citizenry of the country
Here we can say hopefully without too much disagreement that the argument Person C makes is rational and logical apropos. The oft quoted saying, “You cannot reason a person out of something they did not reason themselves into” is necessary to keep in the back of one’s head and with kept with due consideration. Why? The premises that Person C has are faulty. A consequence of that is 1. the logically sound argument (at least as it appears) and 2. the emotive states which Person C appears to have.
Then how does one know if emotions are involved or not? As far as I am considered, they always are, whether it is to a meaningful extent needs to be determined in the course of argument. Any immediate dismissal is for convenience’s sake and likely due to faulty or erroneous premises the dismisser has. That is they do not really know much about emotions, and they employ a naïve rationalist framework in their thinking and argumentation. As materialists, the material conditions of even an individual must be taken into account, that includes qualitative states which may very well have a meaningful influence. Then [4] is rather unhelpful, as it precludes any discussion of an empirical affect, or, the material reality which can be observed and reasoned on itself.
Sorry for the wall of text, and for the late reply, I just thought of this a bit recently and wanted to share.
Good points. Just to be clear, the text in my comment is a quote from Wikipedia.
It really seems that much of us are often too aggressive and meme-y and as fun as that is it really isn’t productive.
I don’t agree. I like it here.
You have a 2 month old account here with 13 comments, you are manifestly not leading the charge on engaging liberals “productively and fruitfully”. Why don’t you engage liberals in the way you recommend?
This is the second post like this from a low activity account, and it honestly is starting to feel like wrecker shit to suck the fun out of the grad.
I like the culture here. The admins are also aggressive and meme-y sometimes. I like that too. I would not be here without that.
If I understand correctly you don’t want the culture to change due to the sentimental value you ascribe to it. I wouldn’t want to alienate the existing members of the community and that was not my intention. I appreciate how clear you were in your disagreement.
I’ll try to show what I meant in response to this comment. There are a few points here which I will make explicit and argue against explicitly for clarity. I hope it makes it easier for us to come to an understanding.
Argument
P1: you are manifestly not leading the charge on engaging liberals “productively and fruitfully”.
P2: Why don’t you engage liberals in the way you recommend?
P3: This is the second post like this from a low activity account
P4: I like the culture here.
P5: The admins are also aggressive and meme-y sometimes.
P6: I like that too. I would not be here without that.
C: and it honestly is starting to feel like wrecker shit to suck the fun out of the grad.
Examination
If I did not get the points or conclusion correct please let me know.
You made an inductive claim in P1 stating that as someone without a history of engaging in quality discourse I have not provided evidence of this being a valid strategy, either because I presume as someone who has not engaged in it I cannot know the effectiveness of what I claim perhaps due to some idealistic notion. There is some knowledge conferred through experience which I do not have and which I may have if I had engaged in the way I mentioned. The other point I see is that there is a degree of authority I lack as someone who does not have this experience which could be deferred to if I at least did engage even if it was not done “productively and fruitfully”.
For P2 I think this is the stronger charge, you question my actions as not lining up with what I espoused. If this was such a great method why not engage in it? There are several reasons why this may not be the case but they would require being open-minded and considerate of options which are non-typical. As you said I am new, at least this account is, I have been doing my best to learn, observe, and lurk, prior to making any comments or engagements. I did not think I had even a base level of understanding until now where I think I have met some threshold. The other, I may be able to, as a seeming outsider, to give a useful perspective from a different standpoint as I have not subsumed the specific tendencies in this community. The weakness here comes from you not knowing where I come from or what my strengths might be. This is definitely less of an argument based on the content but rather closer (but I would not say it is) an attack or questioning of character and authority.
In the case of P3 the frequency of this type of post brings into question its validity. I do not think this is particularly important but perhaps it is because you have been a member for a while and the recent uptick is notable.
P4 and P6 are similar, these are emotive claims about your sentimental value towards the community and the norms and customs you have become accustomed to. Any change to this would presumably want to be avoided as it would necessitate change in the behaviour in existing members and what made this community, going so far as to push away the members which made this community what it is. This is disastrous as change could mean a cessation of what made this community as it is and there is little guarantee that some future evolution of this community would maintain what made the community initially great to you.
P5 This is an appeal to authority, perhaps there must be some good reason the admins behave in the way they do. The other is that though it works for them, it is something non-admins can attempt to emulate. This could be modus operandi which works for admins but not others.
C The current mood and environment of the community is starting to sour and turn you and potentially others away from the community. I mentioned why this could be an issue in my response to P4 and P6, as well it causes discomfort towards you and perhaps others.
Response
I’ll put my response as clearly as I can below.
1 Change in communities always occurs. Members of communities always adjust. There is a rate of change and rate of adjustment which can be made so as not to alienate existing members and also develop the community towards some goal. Explicitly monitoring and modifying these rates is useful as opposed to in-explicitly or organically.
2 There is always some goal for some community, it may be vague, it may be better represented as multiple points, but the set contained is the goal.
3 Working towards a goal is beneficial for the belongingness of members of the community and it can mitigate any alienation or issues with change.
4 The feelings or sentiment members have is important, and can be accommodated through open and regular dialogue. This is true besides notions I am advocating for.
5 There is a way which members of the community can engage which develops their argumentation and theoretical knowledge which is preferable or better than it currently is. This is true generally and certainly not for all.
6 Engaging in such a way is an extension of the beliefs and values of the community.
C We should at least attempt to do something different even if it seems unviable. As scientific thinkers we cannot determine in advance what will happen and experiments are necessary. The costs and the benefits must considered, but it should not be avoided for fear of potential harm. We use models to determine what may happen, as materialists we know what we think is provisional and not the same as the material world.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk
I honestly resent the amount of homework you’re trying to give me here. I did not ask to come to a TED talk, but I think it’s the perfect analogy here - empty, patronizing, and full of pomp.
I tried to write about 14 paragraphs in an attempt to fence back, but I’ll leave it at this - I find your examination of my argument patronizing and willfully obtuse. I don’t care for your logical deconstruction because it makes for an impossible amount of text - I can’t both parry your examination of what I said and respond to your response without writing a fucking research paper.
Your response leaves out answers to what I feel are the most important parts I had to say:
- You are not an appropriate agent to enact change in the community.
- You have not shown that being nicer is an effective way of creating converts.
- You have not shown that the community’s beliefs and values fully align with your own (creating converts in the online space by talking sweetly to liberals).
Your conclusion about scientific thinking is honestly a laugh. Where is your scientific thinking in proving your own method?
I see. Well I’m sorry for making you feel that way. I don’t think I was being especially mean but I can say it was very cold and inaccessible and that could definitely be hurtful and inconsiderate. I still believe we are comrades and would very much not want to cause any further tension between the two of us.
I would want to engage further but I don’t think it would be very conducive especially as you are using pejorative language and writing in a condescending manner. I do think I mentioned your first and third point, I’m only mentioning this for your interest, feel free to ignore it. I won’t be responding to any replies you make to this.
Ah, I forgot that emotional responses are bad. I’ll try to avoid feeling about things. I’ll work on myself so I can come back as your preferred lemmygradder:
Why do these folks look 14 and 41 at the same time?
There should not be much debate about the fact that online interactions change minds. Tons of people in leftist spaces (including many in this thread) will point to a subreddit, YouTuber, podcast, etc. that was a key part of their radicalization. You see the same thing on the right – how many people got sucked into open fascism through online rabbit holes? And of course theories on how media can reinforce capitalist hegemony have been prominent in leftist thinking for at least the past ~40 years.
There should absolutely be more effort applied to identifying:
- Groups who can be brought to our side with a reasonable amount of effort
- Where those groups can be found online
- What is persuasive to those groups
- How to best get persuasive content in front of them
Fascists have been consciously doing this online dating back to at least the mid-00s. We can either abandon ground to them and NYT libs or provide an alternative.
