- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Anyone else have a similar experience with one of these drives?
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redundancy is key
redundancy is key
redundancy is key
Even more redundancy
LOL
I’ve been telling people for years that the entire 21st century is at risk of being a lost century. Even personally I can’t guarantee my data will be with me 20 years from now even though I back it up. If you care about a photo or document, print it and throw it it a box. As I get older I find more of an obsession with physical media from a preservation point of view. Because I know my books and pictures will be around 50 years from now. Digital files not so much.
I used to think this, but now, less so.
I agree with you in general, as most people don’t use physical media. However, those of us that do, are probably pretty secure in our legacy.
I have digital files that have been with me for over a quarter of a century, first through repeated copies to new media formats, then to more sophisticated backup systems. In the past few years, I’ve been alternating backing up to cloud services and then to local USB disks; the backup program is a statically compiled, monolithic program with few dependencies. Recently, I found a solution to the encrypted restore by survivors. I even have a README with instructions.
I’m secure in the knowledge that my 3TB of painstakingly curated collection of foot porn will be available to future researchers, for the betterment of mankind.
Thank you for your service !
We’re in the presence of greatness 🫡
Redundancy. I have 4 drives and the older two drives are always a backup of music and media. I can lose all the save games and softwares since they’ll be outdated anyways but memories need to be preserved.
The kind of media I don’t have backup of is from my Handycam tapes since they no longer make the software and I don’t know how to digitize them in any other way.
The kind of media I don’t have backup of is from my Handycam tapes since they no longer make the software and I don’t know how to digitize them in any other way.
Do this if desperate, but see below first:
Magnetic tape cassettes? Are they standard? Then just stick them in an audio player and record the signal— Or actually, they’re probably 8mm, or DV, or something— So then rip the reader head out of an audio player, scroll through the tape at a constant rate, and digitize that signal (for as many tracks as needed). Don’t do anything silly, like using too much force or sticking too strong a magnet next to them, of course. As long as you’ve got the signal, you can worry about decoding it later if you lose the originals— Get some nerdy college student to figure it out, or wait for someone else with the same problem to post their GIT repository.Easier: Check if the Internet Archive has a copy of the software. It looks like they have quite a few Sony Handycam CDROMs. Maybe you’ll find a compatible model. Run it on an old Windows VM or computer if you need. “No longer make the software” sounds odd; Software like that is made once and then distributed.
(Or: Presumably you can still watch the tapes? Does the camera not have video output that you pass through some sort of capture box? — Though that of course would be lossy.)
Or: Wikipedia suggests the “Handycam” brand was used for multiple format standards, like “Video8” or “Hi8” or whatever. So just search Nile.com (or your personal favourite exploitation-powered online storefront) for “NameOfFormat Digitizer”, and wait for the order to to arrive. Here’s a couple articles from the first search results: IndieWire, VHSConverters. Here’s a machine that supports a couple formats, and has licensed a very reputable brand KodakPhotoPlus. And here’s a service that will apparently do it for you: LegacyBox. — Pricey, maybe, but how much time and money are you already spending, and how much are the tapes worth to you?
Thanks, i think the archive + vm would work. What I meant was there’s no modern software that supports current gen OS.
I’m not in the US so legacy box is out, thanks for sharing. I finally found a way
I’ve been telling people for years that the entire 21st century is at risk of being a lost century. Even personally I can’t guarantee my data will be with me 20 years from now even though I back it up. If you care about a photo or document, print it and throw it it a box. As I get older I find more of an obsession with physical media from a preservation point of view. Because I know my books and pictures will be around 50 years from now. Digital files not so much.
LOCKSS and KISS, though. Flash chips don’t last forever but are pretty durable, and so are optical media as long as they’re the right material. SSDs decay and HDDs fail, but for magnetic platter media even if the head or motor crashes there’s always the old magnetic microscope in a pinch. USB’s not going anywhere, and if you have four or five copies that you don’t completely neglect and don’t store in the same physical place, presumably you’ll have the chance to notice and take corrective measures if any of them start failing or are at risk.
I don’t actually know that an individual book or picture will still be around in 50 years; Fire, flooding, insects, acidic paper, low-quality ink maybe— Digital stuff’s fragile, but so is physical stuff. Stick it in the attic, and the heat’ll speed up any chemical reactions and probably make it cozier for insects; Stick it in the basement, and the condensation will get you mildew and rot. By contrast, having a flash drive accidentally survive a trip through a washer and dryer is a pretty common occurrence, and I’ve yet to lose a drive even with that level of negligence. Material compatibility’s one of the very most basic parts of a set of very precise manufacturing techniques, tin whiskers seem pretty rare these days, the really scarily insidious stuff like hydrogen embrittlement is super improbable, and most biological forms of decay haven’t adapted to eating cured epoxy and monocrystalline silicon yet.
At least I sorta know how a flash cell or hard drive platter is meant to be structured; Who knows what weird organic reactions and unstable or slowly diffusing molecules are happening in the pile of chemical pigments on a sheet of likely-acidic bleached cellulose and cheap ink or toner, and whether it will still be legible to human eyes in however many years? Plus, a printed photo or document starts fading the very instant it’s created, and it gets a little worse every time you touch it with sweaty human hands or look at it while exhaling moist human breath and corrosive enzymatic saliva droplets under a white LED lamp or G-type star shooting out ionizing UV rays. Digital failures tend to be catastrophic, but at least up until the moment it fails, you can make sure that it is the exact same picture or text— And you can make many, many copies very cheaply, all of them very physically durable compared to paper, and know that they are all the exact same picture and text.
That said, I absolutely agree with your overall assessment that most of the information in the early 21st century, including most of the public Internet/WWW, most likely either will be or already is… Maybe not technically lost, per se, given how much caching and saving happens on private clients, but certainly rendered inaccessible.
Ideally I’d really love to see a return of microfiche, actually, using modern polymers and metallization. I’ve been meaning to look into that for a while now. At a reasonable scale for optical viewing, you could fit… much, much more content than you might expect, and do it several times over, in an entirely reasonable number of pages. Your comment actually spurred me to finally think of a practical way of printing that— for years before, I’d been trying to idly figure out a process based on photomasks and nanoparticles suspended in resin, which had always felt like a very messy and tricky idea, but I just thought of another idea– So thanks for providing some inspiration there.
Even data from the Apollo missions was found to be either degrading (tapes) or the formats were forgotten and the systems that could read them were gone. They had to do research into rediscovering how to read the data and hunt around for the few antique systems remaining to read the tapes.
This is a hot take
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The Apollo mission data and BBC TV recordings weren’t considered important enough at the time to preserve them, it wasn’t until decades later that people realized they were but by then the BBC had destroyed or overwritten much of them and NASA had forgotten how to read much of the data. Then there was the notorious loss of many master recordings by great artists in a fire because the company was just too cheap and lazy to store them properly.
PCM, ASCII, and straight RGBA bitmap encodings aren’t going anywhere. By extension, derived formats like WAV, UTF-8, and word processor files and webpage HTML are mostly fine too. The formats are structurally simple enough that even if the associated file extensions were somehow to be forgotten, all you’d need to do to invent them again is hand the file to a bored nerd over the weekend.
I think you kinda got the BBC and NASA problems backwards. The BBC’s had a couple of prominent incidents where digital “preservation” that was supposed to be eternal couldn’t even be opened anymore after a couple of years, like their Domesday Book/Project application thingy. They’ve also lost a bunch of old shows, like early Dr. Who episodes, I think. NASA didn’t just forget how to read the Apollo tapes; they overwrote them to reuse the tapes, as was their standard practice at the time. The original signal and tapes were very HD (or analog), but most of the videos we have today are from the TV camera that they pointed at their own TV screen last-minute when they realized they didn’t have an adapter for broadcast— The equivalent of a grainy cell phone photo of a screenshot, basically.
The BBC and NASA incidents happened in an era before computers were a ubiquitous commodity product. So, everyone and their cat was basically inventing their own obscure single-implemention proprietary file formats at that time. Nowadays we have established technical standards, as well as formats that have already sorta stood the test of time based on their utility and simplicity— and millions of people who already know how to read them— so that particular vector for bitrot isn’t really as much of an issue anymore.
…That said, I think I sorta missed your point. What you’re really saying is that stewardship of digital records is much trickier and riskier than stewardship of physical records— and that results in stuff being lost. And that is absolutely true.
There is a will but there aren’t enough people with enough brain power to actually do the steps needed. Should it endure? I don’t know, maybe the last few decades should be forgotten.
Mistakes are usually the stuff that should be remembered
Fair
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Crazy how a single event sometimes reminds people of bigger problems, huh?
Digital media, where we store basically everything we care about, is hugely, hugely volatile, unreliable, and fragile. But you never notice it until you’re reminded of it, and then you really notice it. This story reminded people of it.
The reminder to stay grounded is probably also healthy, but I do think you’re missing the point of this comment thread.
I was today years old when I learned places like TheVerge are filled with idiots who keep work on USB media, keep no backups, and act like it’s not their fault when something fails.
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Vox Media was the owner since the beginning. The founders of The Verge went to the owner of SB Nations after leaving Engadget. It is part of Vox Media since the beginning.
They also think it’s newsworthy when they experience one hardware failure. How nice to have a platform to shout your own personal grievances from.
iVerge has been on the decline for nearly a decade now.
I’m surprised anyone takes them seriously at this point.
So they just had this one drive fail and they decided to make a big news article about it? Hardware fails sometimes. Just RMA the thing and shut the fuck up about it. Go build a gaming PC.
Did you read the article? Two drives, not one. In 3 months. By the same company. Who is aware of a problem, is trying to hide it, and pushed a firmware update that did not work. Also this second drive was a “safer” replacement the company sent the guy after the first one failed. I say an article about the whole situation is fully warranted
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Go build a gaming PC.
Don’t forget the table and to use a Swiss Army knife that hopefully has a screwdriver in it.
Ragebait articles generate a lot of clicks ig.
Dude, I think you’re way too into the tech space if you think a website publishing an article about some bad ssds can be misconstrued as rage bait.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
This isn’t a drive he purchased many months or years ago — it’s the supposedly safe replacement that Western Digital recently sent after his original wiped his data all by itself.
SanDisk issued a firmware fix for a variety of drives in late May, shortly after our story.
But data recovery services can be expensive, and Western Digital never offered Vjeran any the first time it left him out to dry.
Honestly, it feels like WD has been trying to sweep this under the rug while it tries to offload its remaining inventory at a deep discount — they’re still 66 percent off at Amazon, for example.
Unfortunately, the broken state of the internet means Western Digital doesn’t have to work very hard to keep selling these drives.
I’d also like to say shame on CNET, Cult of Mac and G/O Media’s The Inventory for writing deal posts about this drive that don’t warn their readers at all.
I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Just throwing this out there for anyone shopping for storage drives. BackBlaze does a pretty good regular writeup on the drives they use and how they perform, how reliable they are, etc. It’s very informative and a fun read (if you’re into nerdy stuff).
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backblaze-drive-stats-for-q2-2023/
It’s funny how the loss of storage space can be valued diffently. If it’s 3TB of of video footage for a newspaper, that’s weeks if not months of work and money lost. But it could also just be the last 3 Call of Duty’s with patches.
Randomly disconnects = chance for data loss
Though the filesystem plays a role. I have a full metal body Sandisk USB stick that still overheats after a while and then disconnects (has a heatsink on top now) but ext4 handles that fine. I know that Fat32 has no journaling and NTFS is a tad bit sensible to disconnects. Don’t know about exfat.
My external SSD I put together with a “nice” enclosure started dropping to 5MB/s on any machine. I don’t trust most external SSDs anymore.
I DO trust my RPi case with built-in m.2 USB adapter thingy, as it’s running full speed in that thing, no issues with speed dropping.
I’d like to know more about this adapter thingy.
Oh it’s AMAZING. It’s an expensive case for the Raspberry Pi 4 models, called Argon. It’s 45USD or so. BUT! It CHANGES THE SHITTY MICRO HDMI PORTS INTO TWO REAL HDMI PORTS!
It also has a little slot for an m.2 SSD inside it, and a tiny USB connector to make it work with a Pi. You can super easily boot from SSD and use a microsd as extra storage. It’s like 10x faster than microSD, it’s wild.
I had bought a different case (that honestly I love) but when I read about this one, I fell in love. Only problem is it only takes SATA m.2 drives, which happened to be the kind in my shitty enclosure.
I did something similar and use these UGreen enclosures with an M.2 on each RPi in my cluster. You can easily use these as portable media with whatever SSD you want.
Sorry, on mobile and have no idea how to strip the Amazon link properly. This is the older model I got.
You can buy straight from them as well. Never had an issue with any of their products. https://www.ugreen.com/collections/hubs-docks/products/ugreen-m-2-nvme-sata-ssd-enclosure-reader?variant=39915665129534
It’s my biggest peeve with owning this SSD. I can leave it over a weekend and come back to, no lie, 50+ disconnect notifications from MacOS. Shoddy software to say the least…
Ok, that’s far too much.
I use an Asus enclosure and put in a WD ssd. The heat dissipation is better than the sandisk model and it stays connected pretty much always except during travels
Eh, wait, so it’s heath related? Defective firmware causing overheating or too low limits?
Haven’t had that issue, but definitely design related. Mine is a Asus rog enclosure which has better heatsink than sandisk
NAS w/ RAID…
Yes, actually.
I do have multiple redundancy set up , but I’ve had many a sandisk drive fail, and a few wd my passports too. Now, the WDs were refurbs that I throw media on for the home network, or plugging into my shield, or like that. So I am never surprised when they just don’t work one day.
But the sandisk were brand new, and failed within weeks. It made me give up on the brand entirely. I just don’t like having to deal with my backups failing at that kind of rate. They are good about replacing them, but damn. I think I did two swaps on the one drive, three on another, and then just demanded a refund from the third. The one I use on my dad’s computer was the triple fail, and we finally got one that’s stayed working for a while now.
The other died after six months and I just trashed it and gave up.
I’ve also had horrible experiences with sandisk sd cards. They could be fakes, what with having bought them via amazon though.
Can’t trust Amazon with shit nowadays. What’s the point of sales if you get fake shit in the first place? I mean, Amazon is sleazy even without the common-binning but for a while they were good with their online shopping.
Also, what data storage solutions do you use now? I’m considering just encrypting my stuff and uploading them to some paid cloud service - atleast then someone else smarter than me is responsible for making sure it’s safe and accessible.
I encrypt anything important and use Google for offsite cloud because I, luckily, only have text and a few gigabytes of images that I want the extra step of encryption for.
Everything else, media and such that’s hard to replace but not important gets put on a drive and swapped out monthly to my sister’s house, and my best friend’s house.
Here, there’s a drive on each PC with that stuff, plus whatever is on the individual PC that gets moved to those drives. I’d have to go look for which is where though. But that’s five copies that I update from my main PC as I get new stuff, so they get moved around a good bit. And there’s a backup that is held as a spare.
But, all my files for the stuff I write are also synced to Dropbox and gdrive hourly when I’m writing, and again at the end of a session. During each session, its autosaved every five minutes because I’m a tad lazy and don’t like rewriting things I just wrote because there’s a power issue out here in the boonies. UPS might be an option, but I don’t always write on the same thing.
I don’t like Google any more, and don’t trust any of the “cloud” services as far as I can spit, but they are stable. I’ve never lost anything from the major services, and the free tiers are enough for my needs of important stuff.
“I trusted all my important data to a single point of failure and now I’m screwed”.
So, yes, I respect that SanDisk’s drive may have a manufacturing defect and that sucks but they have to share the blame for this. Seriously, drive mirroring is a thing and every single OS supports it out of the box. A proper RAID system is a thing and even better. Adding duplicate storage, be it cloud, another NAS or backing up to tape is even better still. It’s the 21st century, you should know that by now if your literal job is based on storing data.
I purchased a 2TB one of these SanDisk “extreme portable” drives in 2018, and 2 more 2TB drives in 2019. Purchased each one roughly 6 months apart. Knock on wood…so far no problems at all with any of the 3. But, drives do often fail (I’ve had several fail over the years). One general rule of thumb I have when shopping for drives is I never buy the model with the highest storage capacity for the product line. It’s just a dumb superstition I have, but it seems like the higher capacity ones (like 3TB and above) are the ones that have failed on me in the past.
I love fake product reviews. You can see the marketing speak just dripping off of them. I swear people in marketing can’t control themselves when it comes to speaking like an ad.
That is exactly the type of content LLMs were designed to excel at generating.
That is exactly the type of content LLMs were designed to excel at generating.
Hm. It’s also exactly the kind of disingenuousness that that humans have spent a couple million years evolving to try to detect, though.
I wonder if the LLMs are going to win this. Maybe more likely: When everyone realizes that the entire Internet is being flooded with even more bullshit, we’ll just stop trusting it, and the LLMs will more or less have put themselves out of a job.
It would be funny if the propensity for humans to lie to each other meant that we were basically already inoculated from this terrifying new category of machines that we’ve designed to lie to us too.
Hm. It’s also exactly the kind of disingenuousness that that humans have spent a couple million years evolving to try to detect, though.
I agree, but by now there’s probably no reason to make people write those kind of things. It’s likely that no human oversight is needed at all. Astroturfing can now be nearly completely automated.
I wonder if the LLMs are going to win this. Maybe more likely: When everyone realizes that the entire Internet is being flooded with even more bullshit, we’ll just stop trusting it, and the LLMs will more or less have put themselves out of a job.
One good thing about perfect bullshit generators is that they might help us abolish bullshit things like cover letters and marketing copy. But that’s a very small gain considering the massive loss of trust in the web and making it a glitchy, spammy, scammy experience.
It would be funny if the propensity for humans to lie to each other meant that we were basically already inoculated from this terrifying new category of machines that we’ve designed to lie to us too.
On the contrary, I believe our inherent ability to trust each other is one of the main pillars of civilization, and undisclosed use of LLMs heavily undermines it.
I agree, but by now there’s probably no reason to make people write those kind of things. It’s likely that no human oversight is needed at all. Astroturfing can now be nearly completely automated.
Probably I’m just picking semantics, but that kinda is the good reason to make humans write those kinds of things. Astroturfing is bad, so needing to pay an entire human to be able to do it imposes a cost that limits its spread and application. I guess that’s also what you’re saying.
But that’s a very small gain considering the massive loss of trust in the web and making it a glitchy, spammy, scammy experience.
I’ve been passively wondering how long it will be until I have to start adding
before:2023to get remotely useful web search results on any topic. Don’t know what to try yet if I need to look up something from after that.On the contrary, I believe our inherent ability to trust each other is one of the main pillars of civilization, and undisclosed use of LLMs heavily undermines it.
Oh yeah, definitely. I just meant that as an ironic silver lining, the damage would probably be worse if there wasn’t already some level of dishonesty and deception in society, because then we’d be too pure to have any defences against LLMs.
I guess that’s also what you’re saying.
Yep. And it’s gonna get so much worse once LLMs are mainstream. Perhaps they have been for some time. After all, the Dead Internet theory precedes the onslaught of ChatGPT.
I’ve been passively wondering how long it will be until I have to start adding before:2023 to get remotely useful web search results on any topic. Don’t know what to try yet if I need to look up something from after that.
Yes, that’s very sad. And what would we get in return for losing the Web to the bots? Nothing but automatic expensive BS at scale.
Oh yeah, definitely. I just meant that as an ironic silver lining, the damage would probably be worse if there wasn’t already some level of dishonesty and deception in society, because then we’d be too pure to have any defences against LLMs.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. You’re right. Distrust is essential to critical thinking also. Maybe once everyone learns to assume that you absolutely shouldn’t trust anything on the internet (and especially not anything produced by ChatGPT), it will be easier to combat the spread of fake news and nefarious propaganda. But I doubt it. Even smart people seem to fall into this trap, lured by the plausibility of the output, as was shown by Mozilla recently.
What is the advantage of using this over an USB to SATA adapter?
You don’t have to deal with using a USB to SATA adapter and the drive has a built in enclosure so you can just shove it into a bag or pocket
Is no one mentioning the speed, it can easily go 500+ mbps even with older gen type c ports.
Great if you’re working on large files or installing games even.
I know these comments are going to be full of people touting the virtues of having backup drives, NAS, or other high level data protection, but am I the crazy one? Knock on wood, I know nothing lasts forever, but I have decade+ old usb drives still going strong. How do they burn through so many externals?
I think selection bias is part of it, we tend to hear from the folks who run into issues more than the folks who don’t. I also think a drive that sits on a desktop or in a drawer most of the time in an air-conditioned house will last much longer than one that’s often thrown into a bag and transported in vehicles, airports, etc.
Right, we need more positive articles like “We just didn’t lose 3TB of data on a Sandisk SSD!.. Yep, the data is still there!”
Chances are your decade old USB sticks didn’t go through as much read/write operations as those 3tb ssds
Maybe not. I don’t mean sticks though, I mean full size mechanical external drives. Not even solid state. On my 3TB, I’ve probably done about 10TB of writes (video backup, transfers, etc)
They may have been doing video editing on it. That can be a good amount of read/writes that will wear down a drive.
Vjeran is a supervising producer of a tech site. He should know to back shit up. I’m sure a site as big as The Verge has decent cloud backup.
