This eager dismissal of trans rights as just a tactical decision is entirely why people shit on liberals. Everything that isn’t the rock solid universally approved “normal” is just an anxiety attack away from being bargained away under the faulty assumption it’s an essential sacrifice in the name of protecting the status quo. Never mind that trans rights aren’t a major issue for anyone other than the hard right or trans people and their allies, and that dodging the issue in no way protects Democrats from being assigned a role in the culture war.
You could have just said “that sucks”. You could have pointed to efforts that could work the system elsewhere to protect them. You could have pointed to the myriad of trans rights issues that have majority of support that we could redirect the conversation to. You could have said literally nothing at all. But instead you wanted to broadcast how unimportant the rights of your nominal allies are.
When you live in a 2 party system with FPtP voting, this is the unfortunate reality. The person that has the most support has the most power to intact change. Sometimes that means you have to crawl through shit to get there.
I’ll take any bigot, racist, or whatever vote if that means the better candidate wins in November, because that alternative is the bigot, racist, racist. Better to fluff the controversial voters and hopefully win than lose an election because of a speech. And if she doesn’t win, then it doesn’t matter what she said anyway.
If one candidate said they’d kill the jews, but the other said they’d just send them to camps (to appease that popular fascist voter), liberals would end up voting to send the jews to concentration camps.
That might be true if anything even remotely close to that happened, but that is a completely different situation that what this conversation is about.
One side says no trans rights, and one side didn’t bring it up in their speech, event though a couple of others did, which is far different from being anti trans.
One will actively aid in the genocide, the other may not. There’s two options, one is better than the other. You can piss and moan all you want about it, but that’s reality. Don’t vote out of protest if that gets your rocks off, but it won’t do any good for Palestine.
Election issues aren’t representative of what candidates do in office, issues which don’t have election promises attached end up having the most leeway for action later on.
But in some sense it’s all a sham because we’re still going to end up in neoliberalism Capitalism.
The real issues are: how much direct government support can we get to survive under Capitalism (meaningful nationalisation of government aid in the forms of government welfare support, healthcare, housing, education, and public transport programs)… And how much citizens can cooperate in order to force these changes and or create parallel community based support structures that are immune and legally protected from market interventions and effects.
Strong government programs.
Strong communities capable of mass protests.
…and strong parallel community-supported actions/programs/organisations (see the Black Panthers Maoist breakfast programs).
Right now we’re just talking about a fairly thin part of 1). Don’t mistake a desire to win an election as an abdication of support for trans healthcare, it’s not. The desire is to get the less harmful neoliberal classist option into power.
The real challenge of maintaining pressure and momentum on Kamala and the left establishment Democrats comes after that, and will have to come from community organization directly.
Because Capitalists, left or right, won’t hand you their help, you have to demand it, make it, and take it from them by the force of your demands and the power of organized community mass action.
The ruling class (left or right) understand nothing less than that.
I’m debating whether or not to even engage with you here given that you just gaslit a stranger because you’re upset about what the ruling class isn’t doing for you (presumably) - are you assuming maliciousness where ignorance might’ve sufficed?
You tell me. If you knew that you had all these great ideas and support for people but knew if you didn’t complete this first step, someone else’d be elected and do the opposite of those things, would you willingly lose and put those people you support at risk??
Do you really and truly think that progressives/liberals don’t care about trans rights? After all the bickering these rich assholes do on every damn channel on TV?
Give me a break.
You are valid in being frustrated
You are allowed to have feelings and emotions about your treatment/mistreatment
But none of that makes it okay for you to take it out on your neighbors during a discussion which was trying to emphasize that politics are about strategy, not only morals.
This country operates via a leader person who’s voted for by majority count. In other words, that’s one person who needs to cater to 345 MILLION people.
Sometimes that means keeping your mouth shut on a particular issue temporarily to secure the win. When you’ve won, then you can start acting on those things you held off on emphasizing.
The alternative is that the other rich asshole not only comes in and withholds support, but also comes in and takes active measures to make it worse for these groups.
If it’s between regression and stagnation, I’m not happy with either. I will still take stagnation however because walking something back after it’s been walked back will only be harder.
When I go to pride festivals/parades I’m there to show my support. That’s active support.
Just because I don’t bring up LGBTQ+ rights and arguments at work doesn’t mean I don’t support them. Sometimes, by giving new dem voters some time to acclimate to the waters, you can give them the food later and they’ll be more likely to eat then, rather than when they’re first getting in the pool.
As much as some would like it to be true, you can’t just cram “new” morals down people’s throats and expect miraculous results. You can’t just tell people they’re a POS for not believing in what you believe in and expect them to be like “yo! I am an ignorant, holier-than-thou asshole… you’re right!” There is grace (growing thinner by the election cycle) and strategy in politics. Not everything is as shallow or malicious as people want them to be.
If democrats didn’t utilize this electoral ‘strategy’, maybe we wouldn’t have been taking steps backwards on women’s and LGBTQ rights.
If democrats can’t run on protecting minorities, and they can’t pass popular legislation (after they’ve won because they didn’t run on protecting minorities) because of congressional posturing, then maybe their electoral strategy is broken.
Winning by not alienating new voters who came over from Trumps base??? You and the other person are acting like just because they didn’t fucking talk about YOUR issue RIGHT NOW they will NEVER support you.
New Trump voters go back to Trump: dems fault for alienating them (or worse, progressives fault for pushing dems to be progressive)
Progressive voters staying home or voting green: progressive voters fault for not being ethically flexible
This is why leftists acknowledge liberals as being adversarial, bud. Dems aren’t interested in progress, they’re interested in maintaining their centrist consensus.
Ilhan Omar, Mark Pocan, Ayanna Presley, Rashida Tlaib? Not progressive? Not interested in fighting for minorities?
Maybe I’m just misunderstanding what you’re saying here, but your take smells a lot like “hello fellow teens, let’s go burn down some shit”, “oh look there’s a pallets of bricks here at this protest and it’s almossst dark time!”
Lmao you think Bernie Sanders, AOC or Ilhan Omar are representative of the democratic party? Sanders was quite famously fucked by the party (twice), and Ilhan Omar is currently getting fucked, too. AOC is only barely more friendly with the party, but not until after she walked back her open support for Palestinan liberation and did a livestream with a Zionist AIPAC rep to explain why Israel has a right to defend itself.
The democratic party relies on the support of capitalist and reactionary interests. It’s why they fund primary challenges to progressive congressmen and their extremist reactionary opponents. They’re happy to include progressives in their caucus as long as they maintain their ability to govern with a center-right lean.
I’m debating whether or not to even engage with you
It was this far in where I didn’t debate and just didn’t read any of this wall of text. I know nothing you’re going to say is at all worth reading, because if it was you would have started differently.
This eager dismissal of trans rights as just a tactical decision is entirely why people shit on liberals. Everything that isn’t the rock solid universally approved “normal” is just an anxiety attack away from being bargained away under the faulty assumption it’s an essential sacrifice in the name of protecting the status quo. Never mind that trans rights aren’t a major issue for anyone other than the hard right or trans people and their allies, and that dodging the issue in no way protects Democrats from being assigned a role in the culture war.
You could have just said “that sucks”. You could have pointed to efforts that could work the system elsewhere to protect them. You could have pointed to the myriad of trans rights issues that have majority of support that we could redirect the conversation to. You could have said literally nothing at all. But instead you wanted to broadcast how unimportant the rights of your nominal allies are.
Because to you, politics is just a game.
That’s a lot of words to just say that you don’t understand how politics works in the real world.
“Politics is when we capitulate to the most bigoted perspectives if they happen to be held by an important electoral demographic”
When you live in a 2 party system with FPtP voting, this is the unfortunate reality. The person that has the most support has the most power to intact change. Sometimes that means you have to crawl through shit to get there.
I’ll take any bigot, racist, or whatever vote if that means the better candidate wins in November, because that alternative is the bigot, racist, racist. Better to fluff the controversial voters and hopefully win than lose an election because of a speech. And if she doesn’t win, then it doesn’t matter what she said anyway.
As though you consider any capitulation to fascism unfortunate.
Removed by mod
Jesus christ.
If one candidate said they’d kill the jews, but the other said they’d just send them to camps (to appease that popular fascist voter), liberals would end up voting to send the jews to concentration camps.
This is how liberals end up siding with fascism
That might be true if anything even remotely close to that happened, but that is a completely different situation that what this conversation is about.
One side says no trans rights, and one side didn’t bring it up in their speech, event though a couple of others did, which is far different from being anti trans.
“Sure, participating in a genocide is bad, but the other candidate would participate more”
One will actively aid in the genocide, the other may not. There’s two options, one is better than the other. You can piss and moan all you want about it, but that’s reality. Don’t vote out of protest if that gets your rocks off, but it won’t do any good for Palestine.
“May not” meaning, definitely will and currently is? Lol fuck off already
I stopped reading after this because they obviously don’t understand what’s being said.
You fail at playing the game.
Election issues aren’t representative of what candidates do in office, issues which don’t have election promises attached end up having the most leeway for action later on.
But in some sense it’s all a sham because we’re still going to end up in neoliberalism Capitalism.
The real issues are: how much direct government support can we get to survive under Capitalism (meaningful nationalisation of government aid in the forms of government welfare support, healthcare, housing, education, and public transport programs)… And how much citizens can cooperate in order to force these changes and or create parallel community based support structures that are immune and legally protected from market interventions and effects.
Strong government programs.
Strong communities capable of mass protests.
…and strong parallel community-supported actions/programs/organisations (see the Black Panthers Maoist breakfast programs).
Right now we’re just talking about a fairly thin part of 1). Don’t mistake a desire to win an election as an abdication of support for trans healthcare, it’s not. The desire is to get the less harmful neoliberal classist option into power.
The real challenge of maintaining pressure and momentum on Kamala and the left establishment Democrats comes after that, and will have to come from community organization directly.
Because Capitalists, left or right, won’t hand you their help, you have to demand it, make it, and take it from them by the force of your demands and the power of organized community mass action.
The ruling class (left or right) understand nothing less than that.
Bruh
I’m debating whether or not to even engage with you here given that you just gaslit a stranger because you’re upset about what the ruling class isn’t doing for you (presumably) - are you assuming maliciousness where ignorance might’ve sufficed?
You tell me. If you knew that you had all these great ideas and support for people but knew if you didn’t complete this first step, someone else’d be elected and do the opposite of those things, would you willingly lose and put those people you support at risk??
Do you really and truly think that progressives/liberals don’t care about trans rights? After all the bickering these rich assholes do on every damn channel on TV?
Give me a break.
You are valid in being frustrated You are allowed to have feelings and emotions about your treatment/mistreatment
But none of that makes it okay for you to take it out on your neighbors during a discussion which was trying to emphasize that politics are about strategy, not only morals.
This country operates via a leader person who’s voted for by majority count. In other words, that’s one person who needs to cater to 345 MILLION people.
Sometimes that means keeping your mouth shut on a particular issue temporarily to secure the win. When you’ve won, then you can start acting on those things you held off on emphasizing.
The alternative is that the other rich asshole not only comes in and withholds support, but also comes in and takes active measures to make it worse for these groups.
If it’s between regression and stagnation, I’m not happy with either. I will still take stagnation however because walking something back after it’s been walked back will only be harder.
When I go to pride festivals/parades I’m there to show my support. That’s active support.
Just because I don’t bring up LGBTQ+ rights and arguments at work doesn’t mean I don’t support them. Sometimes, by giving new dem voters some time to acclimate to the waters, you can give them the food later and they’ll be more likely to eat then, rather than when they’re first getting in the pool.
As much as some would like it to be true, you can’t just cram “new” morals down people’s throats and expect miraculous results. You can’t just tell people they’re a POS for not believing in what you believe in and expect them to be like “yo! I am an ignorant, holier-than-thou asshole… you’re right!” There is grace (growing thinner by the election cycle) and strategy in politics. Not everything is as shallow or malicious as people want them to be.
If democrats didn’t utilize this electoral ‘strategy’, maybe we wouldn’t have been taking steps backwards on women’s and LGBTQ rights.
If democrats can’t run on protecting minorities, and they can’t pass popular legislation (after they’ve won because they didn’t run on protecting minorities) because of congressional posturing, then maybe their electoral strategy is broken.
What strategy dude
Winning by not alienating new voters who came over from Trumps base??? You and the other person are acting like just because they didn’t fucking talk about YOUR issue RIGHT NOW they will NEVER support you.
New Trump voters go back to Trump: dems fault for alienating them (or worse, progressives fault for pushing dems to be progressive)
Progressive voters staying home or voting green: progressive voters fault for not being ethically flexible
This is why leftists acknowledge liberals as being adversarial, bud. Dems aren’t interested in progress, they’re interested in maintaining their centrist consensus.
I couldn’t disagree with you more if I wanted to.
Bernie Sanders isn’t interested in progress?
AOC isn’t interested in progress?
Ilhan Omar, Mark Pocan, Ayanna Presley, Rashida Tlaib? Not progressive? Not interested in fighting for minorities?
Maybe I’m just misunderstanding what you’re saying here, but your take smells a lot like “hello fellow teens, let’s go burn down some shit”, “oh look there’s a pallets of bricks here at this protest and it’s almossst dark time!”
Lmao you think Bernie Sanders, AOC or Ilhan Omar are representative of the democratic party? Sanders was quite famously fucked by the party (twice), and Ilhan Omar is currently getting fucked, too. AOC is only barely more friendly with the party, but not until after she walked back her open support for Palestinan liberation and did a livestream with a Zionist AIPAC rep to explain why Israel has a right to defend itself.
The democratic party relies on the support of capitalist and reactionary interests. It’s why they fund primary challenges to progressive congressmen and their extremist reactionary opponents. They’re happy to include progressives in their caucus as long as they maintain their ability to govern with a center-right lean.
I’m just not going to dismiss the entire fucking democratic party under a shallow judgement of specific actions taken by specific people
Pretty simple, and should be a familiar sentiment you should hold if you’re actually progressive, ironically.
Progressives aren’t liberals.
They’re to the left of liberals.
Stop gaslighting.
It’s a good thing we’re talking about democrats and not liberals then huh bud.
Now who’s gaslighting who
It was this far in where I didn’t debate and just didn’t read any of this wall of text. I know nothing you’re going to say is at all worth reading, because if it was you would have started differently.
Figured as much. Very obvious you’re not interested in having civil discourse with anyone.
Enjoy your tantrum and lack of individual support