Wow, that was very informative on more than one level, i wrote answers to more than a dozen comments these past days and yours is probably my favorite, thanks !
The situation you described initially reminded me of accounts i’ve read from eastern europe, but then progressively i’ve realized that it’s probably the same in other countries with the rise of the far-right everywhere and the displacement of the Overton window. In France we’ve pretty much sold every single public company, and Serbia is incredibly much more socialist than i first thought, you almost don’t have any communists in France, our far-far-left political parties are trostkyists that are anti-Russia(, i’ll still vote for them obviously, our medias wouldn’t leave them alone if they supported Venezuela, Russia, etc., and don’t even begin with North Korea,) and probably consider China a dictatorship, while our “socialist party” has been capitalist for decades, etc. Serbia in comparison doesn’t seem worse, i’ve lived all my life without knowing what socialism means, you still have remnants.
Once capitalists are in power, it’s not surprising for anti-communism to be on the rise, please don’t blame the population too much for not taking weapons, we’ll have to do counter-propaganda ideally but our funds are more meager and i could understand if it seems like a lost cause. For that matter, i don’t think that a communist revolution is likely to happen in France(, where i’m from,) either, nor in the u.s.a.
I misunderstood what you meant by “there is no saving” before, i thought that you were, e.g., french or american, and deemed these countries much worse than your own, when you’re in fact comparing it the inspiring Yugoslavia of Tito(, believe it or not, despite its closeness, most french people don’t know him and forgot about Yugoslavia, and he would obviously be classified as a dictator for not having bourgeois democracy). I didn’t realize that your criticism came from the inside, but please do not despair ! Things change, and indeed these graphs show that Serbia isn’t as anti-China as you thought(, the same goes for Hungary), it’s at least one reason to rejoice.
Ah, and pardon me, but your grandmother seems awesome(, do you have any idea what my family members believes in(, i’m honestly not complaining) ? Having a grandmother that likes Lenin&Stalin and even believes that V.Putin is a crypto-socialist seems awesome/unbelievable, congratulations, she’s even surfing the web, and she stops when he’s talking about the replacement theory ? Man, we also have whole channels and political parties that talk about this all day, my grandmother has already integrated this as a fact many years ago and believes that immigrants are the cause of crimes, not poverty(, and is also certain that crimes are on the rise, like a lot of people, even if surveys show the contrary, we’re beyond being anti-communist by forgetting about it)).
(For the record, i’m not saying that being against economic immigration is immoral, but not treating the unfair causes is, because i’m picturing an hopefully false future in which we’ll live centuries among richs behind our walls, while the rest of our human family lives ‘exploited by’&‘poorer than’ us with, e.g., an inferior salary, if i’m wrong and international inequalities aren’t a moral problem, or will soon disappear, then let’s “save our culture from destruction” by closing our borders to these poorer/exploited guys, otherwise let’s focus instead on treating the causes(, while making sure it won’t bite us afterwards,) because i certainly don’t want such selfish future)
B.t.w., are you financially independent with your own place ? If not, it’ll get better at this moment according to my experience, some people are annoying(, but, i mean, your aunt still claim to be socialist, my family members don’t even want to debate so i’m explicitly told to shut up each time(, we’ll still love each other though, just that no politics or any other debate is allowed, you can imagine how watching the news while eating quickly gets challenging :))), but even if they’re annoying you’ll have to challenge yourself as this is the occasion to bring the best of yourself, to try small pertinent comments in a loving voice if you manage to, and take time to let them explain their worldview to you even if you already know it(, sometimes ending their sentences if it gets too long).
That’s just my personal opinion, we’re here to make this world a better place aren’t we ? Nobody’s perfect(, very clearly myself first).
I’ve got time, so we could be (learning from each other by) having a debate on religion and/or conspirationnism if you’re in a mood for that(, debating is fun and instructive ?). But i’ll totally understand if you lack the time and/or will to continue this discussion for too long.
Well of course it’s better than France since France is still colonial imperialist power and this hellhole was once SFRY, but hear me out.
Here as I wrote, the government for 30 years is selling everything to EU, USA, Saudis etc and is extremely liberal, while they try to play ‘‘both sides’’ etc, they still lick boots of EU on every occasion and allow literal fascism to spread like wildfire while they do nothing. If you’re familiar with fascism in Eastern Europe and rise of right-wing parties everywhere, then you know what I’m talking about. While we have most people who support Russia by far, they’re still fascist monarchists promoting religious fanaticism and worshipping nazi collaborators. Those remnants are very little in the form of 2 good but very small communist parties.
This needs a hard re-education after 30 years of brainrot and as for China, some people love China and view it in positive light, but racism and Sinophobia is also quite spread as is extreme racism against Roma, immigrants etc.
I forgot where I mentioned my grandmother, but you might need to re-read about the aunt part, she has serious mental problems and while she claimed before that she’s socialist, she went on rightist insane conspiracy theories, antisemitism, LGBT phobia etc, idk about her now considering I didn’t see her for months.
of course it’s better than France since France is still colonial imperialist power and this hellhole was once SFRY
(don’t know why i chuckled at your “of course”, i’ve only spent a few days on lemmy.world and already forgot what Lemmygrad was like, quite apart from the rest of the Internet :))
I still don’t entirely agree with the term fascism, even if i could see how the rhetoric about muslims in France is close to the rhetoric about jews in the past, e.g., they’re destroying the fabric of society by not being french enough, and are a threat solely by their identity, an annoyance to get rid of, even an attack.
But their militarism isn’t as exacerbated(, which could be explained solely by the context), the same goes for their nationalism as well(, even if they’re not internationalist, and if hearing America first or France first, even at the expense of other countries, isn’t uncommon), and it’s always a bit worrying to hear them praise order and the restoration of authority.
They’re still in favor of bourgeois democracy though, without public plans for a stronger leadership, don’t openly support censorship, or express themselves as being a third way against liberalism.
They don’t talk about the “french race” as inherently superior to the others with a classification of the different races in a biological way, nor put forward the virile/military strength of the male in order to save the nation.
When they talk about our past you can feel that monarchism isn’t entirely dead in the heart of some of them, but damn, you can also almost even hear them talk of direct democracy sometimes(, although it may be a french exception).
But even if i personally consider the qualification fascism as an exaggeration since it can always be worse, i can see how it’s similar, it’s perhaps indeed more a question of quantity/intensity than quality/nature.
It’s just that being pro-capitalist seems enough of a slur for me 🤷, it means legalizing theft and heading back to a feodal society(, even if technological progress may change this course towards more inequalities).
some people love China and view it in positive light
Yeah, we don’t have that here, they’re a dictatorship that persecute its opposition and if it falls we’ll applaud this liberation. No need to explain to you why that’s bullshit and revolting.
extreme racism against Roma
That’s everywhere indeed, they’re seen as criminals/thieves who don’t want to work(, how could they without papers ?), people seeing their encampments sometimes think that it’s disgusting and should go away, even if they’re still allowed to stay quite a few years in the end, and it’s not to the point of Ukraine for whom i’ve seen videos of pogroms against the Romani people(, i remember a video where they were chased in the woods), this could happen if our economic situation deteriorates.
I don’t believe in national essentialism, or thinking that the poors deserve their fate(, since they don’t have the same ‘birth privileges’/‘starting advantages’,) instead of being born at the wrong place/time and just needing help as we all do… I don’t know if you have this expression in Serbia to criticize the actions of our government “strong with the weak, and weak with the strong”. Well, everything can always be worse, at least we’ve avoided the horrors of war…
Here’s something i’ve just seen that may be indicative(, or be a wrong example i.d.k.), if you translate these comments then you’ll see that most people are supporting the condemnation of two protestors that will live two whole years in a jail cell for dirtying a glass protection, absolutely zero damage was caused(, i don’t know how they attained the number of 10.000£), we’re not allowed to do violent protests and that’s the most nonviolent i could think of, it even made a bit of publicity for this art piece. I can’t understand the state but even worse it’s all of these comments that i cannot understand, they’re either against ecology(, why ?), or mistakenly believed that this art piece was ruined(, i doubt it), i don’t know, that’s the “strong against the weak” part, as for the “weak against the strong” there’s private-public partnerships(, e.g., highway tolls), or the tax evasion&avoidance, etc., you’re not going to hit the friends that helped you after all 🤷
It was retweeted by someone, Guillaume Meurice, who worked in one of the last public medias that we still have for more than a decade, and was fired, unbelievably, because of a segment in which he jokingly said while laughing that « In fact, Netanyahu is like Hitler, but without a foreskin », i shit you not it’s for that sole reason officially and nothing else, i can’t understand why a lot of people agreed that he went too far and had to be fired, in my eyes i’m convinced that he was fired for being probably (one of )the last “leftist” in our medias(, clearly not a communist propagandist/theorician mind you, we don’t have that in France except on the Internet, but he’s not against the idea of communism, he’s for a more humane capitalism, and criticize our excesses).
Here’s another example seen today, even if examples aren’t as solid/serious as mentioning statistics and laws.
Well, i’ll not make my review of the whole state of France(, not sure i’d be able to anyway), but here’s some anecdotes as well, could be worse, could be better.
I consider myself to be much more of a theocrat than a communist, i see the latter as a consequence of the former, and if i had to choose between God and anything else then the choice is immediately done(, the most extreme would be to ask me to choose between God and what i consider to be virtuous, even if i can’t imagine such situation).
I’m probably one of the only theocrat on Lemmygrad, but i don’t think it’s against the rules as long as i’m still communist, if you ever want to convince me that religions should disappear, i’m interested in such debate(, otherwise feel free to ignore this paragraph :)), the only thing i’m missing from reddit are those subreddits dedicated to debates(, even if it takes time).
Then please send them, i assumed that you were only talking about l.g.b.t. laws.
Let’s see, I explained it a lot here plus a few personal experiences to see the mindset of some people here:
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/424740
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/4676879
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/411816/306375
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/5287344/4813824
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/3827816
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/5044564
Wow, that was very informative on more than one level, i wrote answers to more than a dozen comments these past days and yours is probably my favorite, thanks !
The situation you described initially reminded me of accounts i’ve read from eastern europe, but then progressively i’ve realized that it’s probably the same in other countries with the rise of the far-right everywhere and the displacement of the Overton window. In France we’ve pretty much sold every single public company, and Serbia is incredibly much more socialist than i first thought, you almost don’t have any communists in France, our far-far-left political parties are trostkyists that are anti-Russia(, i’ll still vote for them obviously, our medias wouldn’t leave them alone if they supported Venezuela, Russia, etc., and don’t even begin with North Korea,) and probably consider China a dictatorship, while our “socialist party” has been capitalist for decades, etc. Serbia in comparison doesn’t seem worse, i’ve lived all my life without knowing what socialism means, you still have remnants.
Once capitalists are in power, it’s not surprising for anti-communism to be on the rise, please don’t blame the population too much for not taking weapons, we’ll have to do counter-propaganda ideally but our funds are more meager and i could understand if it seems like a lost cause. For that matter, i don’t think that a communist revolution is likely to happen in France(, where i’m from,) either, nor in the u.s.a.
I misunderstood what you meant by “there is no saving” before, i thought that you were, e.g., french or american, and deemed these countries much worse than your own, when you’re in fact comparing it the inspiring Yugoslavia of Tito(, believe it or not, despite its closeness, most french people don’t know him and forgot about Yugoslavia, and he would obviously be classified as a dictator for not having bourgeois democracy). I didn’t realize that your criticism came from the inside, but please do not despair ! Things change, and indeed these graphs show that Serbia isn’t as anti-China as you thought(, the same goes for Hungary), it’s at least one reason to rejoice.
Ah, and pardon me, but your grandmother seems awesome(, do you have any idea what my family members believes in(, i’m honestly not complaining) ? Having a grandmother that likes Lenin&Stalin and even believes that V.Putin is a crypto-socialist seems awesome/unbelievable, congratulations, she’s even surfing the web, and she stops when he’s talking about the replacement theory ? Man, we also have whole channels and political parties that talk about this all day, my grandmother has already integrated this as a fact many years ago and believes that immigrants are the cause of crimes, not poverty(, and is also certain that crimes are on the rise, like a lot of people, even if surveys show the contrary, we’re beyond being anti-communist by forgetting about it)).
(For the record, i’m not saying that being against economic immigration is immoral, but not treating the unfair causes is, because i’m picturing an hopefully false future in which we’ll live centuries among richs behind our walls, while the rest of our human family lives ‘exploited by’&‘poorer than’ us with, e.g., an inferior salary, if i’m wrong and international inequalities aren’t a moral problem, or will soon disappear, then let’s “save our culture from destruction” by closing our borders to these poorer/exploited guys, otherwise let’s focus instead on treating the causes(, while making sure it won’t bite us afterwards,) because i certainly don’t want such selfish future)
B.t.w., are you financially independent with your own place ? If not, it’ll get better at this moment according to my experience, some people are annoying(, but, i mean, your aunt still claim to be socialist, my family members don’t even want to debate so i’m explicitly told to shut up each time(, we’ll still love each other though, just that no politics or any other debate is allowed, you can imagine how watching the news while eating quickly gets challenging :))), but even if they’re annoying you’ll have to challenge yourself as this is the occasion to bring the best of yourself, to try small pertinent comments in a loving voice if you manage to, and take time to let them explain their worldview to you even if you already know it(, sometimes ending their sentences if it gets too long).
That’s just my personal opinion, we’re here to make this world a better place aren’t we ? Nobody’s perfect(, very clearly myself first).
I’ve got time, so we could be (learning from each other by) having a debate on religion and/or conspirationnism if you’re in a mood for that(, debating is fun and instructive ?). But i’ll totally understand if you lack the time and/or will to continue this discussion for too long.
Well of course it’s better than France since France is still colonial imperialist power and this hellhole was once SFRY, but hear me out.
Here as I wrote, the government for 30 years is selling everything to EU, USA, Saudis etc and is extremely liberal, while they try to play ‘‘both sides’’ etc, they still lick boots of EU on every occasion and allow literal fascism to spread like wildfire while they do nothing. If you’re familiar with fascism in Eastern Europe and rise of right-wing parties everywhere, then you know what I’m talking about. While we have most people who support Russia by far, they’re still fascist monarchists promoting religious fanaticism and worshipping nazi collaborators. Those remnants are very little in the form of 2 good but very small communist parties.
This needs a hard re-education after 30 years of brainrot and as for China, some people love China and view it in positive light, but racism and Sinophobia is also quite spread as is extreme racism against Roma, immigrants etc.
I forgot where I mentioned my grandmother, but you might need to re-read about the aunt part, she has serious mental problems and while she claimed before that she’s socialist, she went on rightist insane conspiracy theories, antisemitism, LGBT phobia etc, idk about her now considering I didn’t see her for months.
Over the Danube it’s less bad somewhat,but the cost of that is heavy Euro-Atlanticist meddling
(don’t know why i chuckled at your “of course”, i’ve only spent a few days on lemmy.world and already forgot what Lemmygrad was like, quite apart from the rest of the Internet :))
I still don’t entirely agree with the term fascism, even if i could see how the rhetoric about muslims in France is close to the rhetoric about jews in the past, e.g., they’re destroying the fabric of society by not being french enough, and are a threat solely by their identity, an annoyance to get rid of, even an attack.
But their militarism isn’t as exacerbated(, which could be explained solely by the context), the same goes for their nationalism as well(, even if they’re not internationalist, and if hearing America first or France first, even at the expense of other countries, isn’t uncommon), and it’s always a bit worrying to hear them praise order and the restoration of authority.
They’re still in favor of bourgeois democracy though, without public plans for a stronger leadership, don’t openly support censorship, or express themselves as being a third way against liberalism.
They don’t talk about the “french race” as inherently superior to the others with a classification of the different races in a biological way, nor put forward the virile/military strength of the male in order to save the nation.
When they talk about our past you can feel that monarchism isn’t entirely dead in the heart of some of them, but damn, you can also almost even hear them talk of direct democracy sometimes(, although it may be a french exception).
But even if i personally consider the qualification fascism as an exaggeration since it can always be worse, i can see how it’s similar, it’s perhaps indeed more a question of quantity/intensity than quality/nature.
It’s just that being pro-capitalist seems enough of a slur for me 🤷, it means legalizing theft and heading back to a feodal society(, even if technological progress may change this course towards more inequalities).
Yeah, we don’t have that here, they’re a dictatorship that persecute its opposition and if it falls we’ll applaud this liberation. No need to explain to you why that’s bullshit and revolting.
That’s everywhere indeed, they’re seen as criminals/thieves who don’t want to work(, how could they without papers ?), people seeing their encampments sometimes think that it’s disgusting and should go away, even if they’re still allowed to stay quite a few years in the end, and it’s not to the point of Ukraine for whom i’ve seen videos of pogroms against the Romani people(, i remember a video where they were chased in the woods), this could happen if our economic situation deteriorates.
I don’t believe in national essentialism, or thinking that the poors deserve their fate(, since they don’t have the same ‘birth privileges’/‘starting advantages’,) instead of being born at the wrong place/time and just needing help as we all do… I don’t know if you have this expression in Serbia to criticize the actions of our government “strong with the weak, and weak with the strong”. Well, everything can always be worse, at least we’ve avoided the horrors of war…
Here’s something i’ve just seen that may be indicative(, or be a wrong example i.d.k.), if you translate these comments then you’ll see that most people are supporting the condemnation of two protestors that will live two whole years in a jail cell for dirtying a glass protection, absolutely zero damage was caused(, i don’t know how they attained the number of 10.000£), we’re not allowed to do violent protests and that’s the most nonviolent i could think of, it even made a bit of publicity for this art piece. I can’t understand the state but even worse it’s all of these comments that i cannot understand, they’re either against ecology(, why ?), or mistakenly believed that this art piece was ruined(, i doubt it), i don’t know, that’s the “strong against the weak” part, as for the “weak against the strong” there’s private-public partnerships(, e.g., highway tolls), or the tax evasion&avoidance, etc., you’re not going to hit the friends that helped you after all 🤷
It was retweeted by someone, Guillaume Meurice, who worked in one of the last public medias that we still have for more than a decade, and was fired, unbelievably, because of a segment in which he jokingly said while laughing that « In fact, Netanyahu is like Hitler, but without a foreskin », i shit you not it’s for that sole reason officially and nothing else, i can’t understand why a lot of people agreed that he went too far and had to be fired, in my eyes i’m convinced that he was fired for being probably (one of )the last “leftist” in our medias(, clearly not a communist propagandist/theorician mind you, we don’t have that in France except on the Internet, but he’s not against the idea of communism, he’s for a more humane capitalism, and criticize our excesses).
Here’s another example seen today, even if examples aren’t as solid/serious as mentioning statistics and laws.
Well, i’ll not make my review of the whole state of France(, not sure i’d be able to anyway), but here’s some anecdotes as well, could be worse, could be better.
I consider myself to be much more of a theocrat than a communist, i see the latter as a consequence of the former, and if i had to choose between God and anything else then the choice is immediately done(, the most extreme would be to ask me to choose between God and what i consider to be virtuous, even if i can’t imagine such situation).
I’m probably one of the only theocrat on Lemmygrad, but i don’t think it’s against the rules as long as i’m still communist, if you ever want to convince me that religions should disappear, i’m interested in such debate(, otherwise feel free to ignore this paragraph :)), the only thing i’m missing from reddit are those subreddits dedicated to debates(, even if it takes time).