I think this is a dumb take. Third parties are only used like this in the US because our voting system is incredibly broken and there is little interest in fixing it. If you don’t explicitly highlight the caveats:
The spoiler effect is a fixable problem, even on the state by state basis.
Third parties are, conceptually, a great idea
then what you’re doing is attempting to uphold and protect the broken system from being improved.
It is a fixable problem, but it is not a fixed problem. Bringing them up during presidential elections and only during presidential elections doesn’t fix the problem and just leads to it.
Which is why the correct way to bring it up is to mention the spoiler effect.
The problem is when you talk to some republicans they want a 1 party system. They want to ban democrats. If you talk to some democrats they believe we should ban third parties. These are both antidemocracy views that normalize each other.
So what you’re arguing for here (to be very clear) is that it is better to embrace a softer form of anti-democracy messaging than to explain that we should avoid voting third party when spoiler effects are a concern.
I’m saying that if you’re in favor of strengthening third parties in America a lot of work needs to be done and just shouting vote third party every 4 years is none of that work.
And I’m saying damage control for third parties a lot more work needs to be done than simply saying “3rd party bad, 2 parties good.” because idk if you’ve been watching but we’re perilously close to having a 1 party system.
This a prime opportunity to educate voters on their own voting system and people are squandering that to oversimplify their messaging to the degree they sound like republicans.
Edit: To clarify if you wanted to eliminate the republican party, a 3rd party needs to replace it in a 2 party system creating a “catch 22” situation where fptp props up a fascist minority party because 3rd parties can’t compete
Any third-party candidate trying to run for the president is either stupid or acting in bad faith. That’s what the meme was pointing out. That’s the reality of the situation in America until the work is done to fix the spoiler problem. If someone is competent and actually is acting in good faith, they don’t run as a third party in US presidential elections. If their belief is we need stronger third parties, they do that by trying to change the electoral system at a more local level.
“Now” is the only time to educate people about how the voting system needs to change and the “Less parties more good” mantra is the stupidest shit I’ve ever seen. The problem has a name and its called the “spoiler effect”.
People talk about these issues during political season or they don’t talk about them. Quit trying to solve a short term problem with a long term problem.
Sure you conveniently haven’t, but I’ve seen it floated on these boards and the post in the chain above us we’re replying to is aligned with antidemocratic messaging - it by no means rejects anyone who wants to ban 3rd parties.
But lets make an even easier comparison making it hard for 3rd parties to exist is not wholly different than banning them. This is in fact how republicans approached abortion before the supreme court’s catholic wing decided to allow bans.
Its all working to the same goal. Anti 3rd party messaging without context and rational thought is just anti-democracy messaging which only helps republicans. Every legal tool democrats are using to beat down 3rd parties will eventually be used by republicans to prevent democrats from being elected.
The only way to fix it is to change the way we vote so that 3rd parties don’t produce spoiler effects.
You improve a broken system by fixing the broken system, not by pretending you’re not using it.
Vote, agitate or even run as a candidate that will pass ranked choice voting, locally or larger. Support the interstate electoral vote compact. Do whatever you can to directly fix the system.
Until then, you mitigate harm within the broken system.
Nobody is arguing that. The problem is presenting third parties as bad without giving any sort of context on how and where harm needs to be mitigated.
For instance: Alaska has ranked choice voting. Why on earth would you waste resources telling people to oppose third parties if you know some of the people you’re talking to live in alaska? It makes no sense. The problem here, as it has always been, is the voting system cannot handle 3rd parties and we should back away from them where spoiler effects are a concern
Contextually, we are discussing the presidential election. That’s what the meme above is about. 49 of 50 states are FPTP. Alaska is the only one using RCV. Since Alaska’s total population is 800k out of 345 million US citizens, the discussion of voting pragmatically for president affects
99.8% of Americans.
In Alaska, which does have RCV for president starting this year, people should fully vote for their ideal candidate, as long as they rank the rest as well so RCV works.
So overall, for every 500 Americans who read this thread and now opt to vote pragmatically, it might adversely affect 1 Alaskan, who may vote pragmatically instead of ideally. That’s not a perfect ideal for those rare Alaskans, but it’s still reasonable.
Right but if only a handful of swing states actually matter here so lets take it a step further, why waste effort telling people from like california or texas not to vote 3rd party because, lets be honest, the margins aren’t big enough for third parties to matter there.
Like I feel like its both more convincing and more honest to just say “Don’t vote third party where the spoiler effect is a concern” or “don’t vote third party in swing states”
It doesn’t matter until it matters. Voting fecklesly for a 3rd party in just one large election every 4 years has not and will not change anything meaninfully. You need changes like Alaska’s, which based on state population size, was like changing a city ordinance. It will take a lot more effort to change over to RCV in basically any other state. A kind of effort fringe candidates should be applying non stop.
The issue with “well just do it in non swing states” is that you can’t contain this empty, contrarian gesturing to just those states without the candiates opting to not put themselves on the ballot in others. If they did that intentionally, only applying to be on the ballot in non swing states, while also actively campaigning for RCV, then I would fully support it. None do.
The reality is the people like RFK Jr and Jill stein are intentional spoilers, heavily subsidized by right wing billionaires and foreign powers to throw the election in those swing states. You can follow the money and see it in action. Until they seriously apply the above efforts, that’s all they will ever be, and they don’t deserve even token gestures of support.
The problem here is that the 2 party FPTP system is propping up the republican minority party creating a catch 22 where in most countries the republican party would split between resulting in a centrist party and a “MAGA” party. Like if you look at the UK that’s kind of what happened. But here in the US its created a zombie republican party controlled by fascists.
Like the fact that more states have not adopted viable ranked choice voting methods and constrained the electoral college system is currently why Trump even stands a chance today. The people deciding the 2024 election are like begrudging centrist-leaning republicans who are being given two choices they don’t like and we’d all be better off if they could just get like a house rep isntead and didn’t decide the president.
I’m saying that the problem here is that the problem isn’t “Third parties” its “The Spoiler Effect”.
You might think that’s a distinction without a difference but if you say “We need to eliminate 3rd parties” that’s a very different solution from “we need to eliminate the spoiler effect”
PS: Fuck that moron Jill Stein because she’s only made this shit harder to talk about
The spoiler effect is absolutely a fixable problem. It would be great if our current third party candidates actually put in effort to exist in the political eye and work for said reform, outside of crawling out of their hole every 4 years to run for President.
I think this is a dumb take. Third parties are only used like this in the US because our voting system is incredibly broken and there is little interest in fixing it. If you don’t explicitly highlight the caveats:
then what you’re doing is attempting to uphold and protect the broken system from being improved.
It is a fixable problem, but it is not a fixed problem. Bringing them up during presidential elections and only during presidential elections doesn’t fix the problem and just leads to it.
So you won’t complain about spoilers during midterms, then?
The spoilers rarely show up, if ever, during midterms, which is very telling.
Then it’ll be really easy to not complain about them.
Which is why the correct way to bring it up is to mention the spoiler effect.
The problem is when you talk to some republicans they want a 1 party system. They want to ban democrats. If you talk to some democrats they believe we should ban third parties. These are both antidemocracy views that normalize each other.
So what you’re arguing for here (to be very clear) is that it is better to embrace a softer form of anti-democracy messaging than to explain that we should avoid voting third party when spoiler effects are a concern.
I’m saying that if you’re in favor of strengthening third parties in America a lot of work needs to be done and just shouting vote third party every 4 years is none of that work.
And I’m saying damage control for third parties a lot more work needs to be done than simply saying “3rd party bad, 2 parties good.” because idk if you’ve been watching but we’re perilously close to having a 1 party system.
This a prime opportunity to educate voters on their own voting system and people are squandering that to oversimplify their messaging to the degree they sound like republicans.
Edit: To clarify if you wanted to eliminate the republican party, a 3rd party needs to replace it in a 2 party system creating a “catch 22” situation where fptp props up a fascist minority party because 3rd parties can’t compete
Any third-party candidate trying to run for the president is either stupid or acting in bad faith. That’s what the meme was pointing out. That’s the reality of the situation in America until the work is done to fix the spoiler problem. If someone is competent and actually is acting in good faith, they don’t run as a third party in US presidential elections. If their belief is we need stronger third parties, they do that by trying to change the electoral system at a more local level.
THAT IS WHY WE’RE SAYING 3RD PARTY BAD
This is NOT the time. Just shut up about 3rd parties. The debates and discussions are still perfectly valid in 3 months, let’s talk about it then.
Removed by mod
“Now” is the only time to educate people about how the voting system needs to change and the “Less parties more good” mantra is the stupidest shit I’ve ever seen. The problem has a name and its called the “spoiler effect”.
People talk about these issues during political season or they don’t talk about them. Quit trying to solve a short term problem with a long term problem.
…and that’s the problem. 3rd party people need to be having this conversation more than once every 4 years.
So you think that’s good? wtf
I have never seen this argument from any democrat before.
Questioned their legitimacy in participating as a candidate in a presidential election? Yes.
But banning third parties? Absolute hogwash, I’ve never once seen that.
Sure you conveniently haven’t, but I’ve seen it floated on these boards and the post in the chain above us we’re replying to is aligned with antidemocratic messaging - it by no means rejects anyone who wants to ban 3rd parties.
But lets make an even easier comparison making it hard for 3rd parties to exist is not wholly different than banning them. This is in fact how republicans approached abortion before the supreme court’s catholic wing decided to allow bans.
Its all working to the same goal. Anti 3rd party messaging without context and rational thought is just anti-democracy messaging which only helps republicans. Every legal tool democrats are using to beat down 3rd parties will eventually be used by republicans to prevent democrats from being elected.
The only way to fix it is to change the way we vote so that 3rd parties don’t produce spoiler effects.
OK, so claims of randos on the internet.
NOT any single elected democrat.
Got it.
Ah so what matters is words not actions? Taking steps to remove 3rd parties from ballots is fine as long as you don’t say it?
What matter is context. Intentionally leaving it out is garbage.
As is not saying which ballots you’re referring to. In this case, I assume its the presidential election where they are playing the role of spoiler?
Yes, it absolutely makes sense to legally challenge those.
But “some democrats” is just as garbage and useless a comment as “people are saying”.
Edited to add: This is also definitively and explicitly not the same thing as saying ban all third parties.
Nonsense. Utter nonsense.
You improve a broken system by fixing the broken system, not by pretending you’re not using it.
Vote, agitate or even run as a candidate that will pass ranked choice voting, locally or larger. Support the interstate electoral vote compact. Do whatever you can to directly fix the system.
Until then, you mitigate harm within the broken system.
Nobody is arguing that. The problem is presenting third parties as bad without giving any sort of context on how and where harm needs to be mitigated.
For instance: Alaska has ranked choice voting. Why on earth would you waste resources telling people to oppose third parties if you know some of the people you’re talking to live in alaska? It makes no sense. The problem here, as it has always been, is the voting system cannot handle 3rd parties and we should back away from them where spoiler effects are a concern
Contextually, we are discussing the presidential election. That’s what the meme above is about. 49 of 50 states are FPTP. Alaska is the only one using RCV. Since Alaska’s total population is 800k out of 345 million US citizens, the discussion of voting pragmatically for president affects 99.8% of Americans.
In Alaska, which does have RCV for president starting this year, people should fully vote for their ideal candidate, as long as they rank the rest as well so RCV works.
So overall, for every 500 Americans who read this thread and now opt to vote pragmatically, it might adversely affect 1 Alaskan, who may vote pragmatically instead of ideally. That’s not a perfect ideal for those rare Alaskans, but it’s still reasonable.
Right but if only a handful of swing states actually matter here so lets take it a step further, why waste effort telling people from like california or texas not to vote 3rd party because, lets be honest, the margins aren’t big enough for third parties to matter there.
Like I feel like its both more convincing and more honest to just say “Don’t vote third party where the spoiler effect is a concern” or “don’t vote third party in swing states”
It doesn’t matter until it matters. Voting fecklesly for a 3rd party in just one large election every 4 years has not and will not change anything meaninfully. You need changes like Alaska’s, which based on state population size, was like changing a city ordinance. It will take a lot more effort to change over to RCV in basically any other state. A kind of effort fringe candidates should be applying non stop.
The issue with “well just do it in non swing states” is that you can’t contain this empty, contrarian gesturing to just those states without the candiates opting to not put themselves on the ballot in others. If they did that intentionally, only applying to be on the ballot in non swing states, while also actively campaigning for RCV, then I would fully support it. None do.
The reality is the people like RFK Jr and Jill stein are intentional spoilers, heavily subsidized by right wing billionaires and foreign powers to throw the election in those swing states. You can follow the money and see it in action. Until they seriously apply the above efforts, that’s all they will ever be, and they don’t deserve even token gestures of support.
The problem here is that the 2 party FPTP system is propping up the republican minority party creating a catch 22 where in most countries the republican party would split between resulting in a centrist party and a “MAGA” party. Like if you look at the UK that’s kind of what happened. But here in the US its created a zombie republican party controlled by fascists.
Like the fact that more states have not adopted viable ranked choice voting methods and constrained the electoral college system is currently why Trump even stands a chance today. The people deciding the 2024 election are like begrudging centrist-leaning republicans who are being given two choices they don’t like and we’d all be better off if they could just get like a house rep isntead and didn’t decide the president.
Yes, that is an accurate representation of the issue of FPTP.
What does voting for Jill Stein or RFK Jr do to change that in 49 of 50 states?
I’m saying that the problem here is that the problem isn’t “Third parties” its “The Spoiler Effect”.
You might think that’s a distinction without a difference but if you say “We need to eliminate 3rd parties” that’s a very different solution from “we need to eliminate the spoiler effect”
PS: Fuck that moron Jill Stein because she’s only made this shit harder to talk about
Actually, a LOT of people are arguing that.
The spoiler effect is absolutely a fixable problem. It would be great if our current third party candidates actually put in effort to exist in the political eye and work for said reform, outside of crawling out of their hole every 4 years to run for President.