- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
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Fwiw, mearshmeier thinks the US is controlled by jews 😅
Presumably that comes from this book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy
Haven’t read it myself, but from the summary it looks like he’s talking about Israel, not Jewish people. We’re all familiar with the difference.
It was an article not the book, ill reply when i find it.
Wait, seriously? I knew he’s a ghoul, but I liked using him as an source for libs when talking about why Ukraine was the West’s fault. I don’t want to use him for anything anymore though if he legit thinks that?
Its the usual stuff with these “realist” geopolitics guys, really it should be called “culturalist” instead of “realist”. They see the world firstmost as a clash of culture, and since some very powerful people in the world are jewish, their logical conclusion is that jews run the world but more eloquently.
I will hit you up with the article when i find it.
I think this framing as “complicit in genocide” is harmful and unfortunately very successful. As I see it Israel is nothing but a proxy for American interests and activities in the surrounding region. It is almostly wholly subsidised, propped up and secured by American aid. If America were to divest itself from Israel, Israel would cease to exist the next day even if assistance from Euroghouls were to continue. America is one doing the genocide.
good catch, theyre definitely guilty of genocide.
I think people tend to think of and speak of genocide withing its legal context and for that israel is its own sovereign nation. And I doubt the distinction makes any actual difference i dont think supplying the weapons, intelligence, money, and political support for genocide is any less of a wrong in most peoples minds than actually doing it.
Indeed, it paints the relationship in misleading way.
No logic in your argument. If American investment in Israel would stop now, of course the country wouldn’t cease to exist. That’s magical thinking. Did the US create the mindsets of orthodox jews, radicalised settlers or right-wing nutjobs serving as long-term PMs?
Of course not. It’s not untypical. We find this kind of hatred against a neighbor all over the world. In this sense Israel demonstrates very well that they are not a “chosen people” but a horribly regular people.
Isn’treal exists in it’s current state today because it is a proxy to exert US interests and military force in West Asia. The US doesn’t give unlimited money and weapons to countries that aren’t following orders. What we’re really seeing now is the US escalating against Iran and all anti-imperialist resistance forces. It the Zionist lebensraum expands into the conquered territories, then US power projection expands.
We find this kind of hatred against a neighbor all over the world. In this sense Israel demonstrates very well that they are not a “chosen people” but a horribly regular people.
Israel is an euroamerican settler project. This is not a squabble between neighbours.
A squabble like the genocide in Darfur or the genocide in Armenia? What point are you trying to make here?
The point you just made is that you’re acting politically illiterate because none of those are comparable. You’re dismissing the fact that Israel, like America, is a settler state that is pushing indigenous people off the land (both 2nd class Jewish citizens and Palestinian ones) and slaughtering them in an apartheid system. Darfur does not have that to such a systematic level. Darfur also doesn’t get 8 billion dollars+ in taxpayer dollars. Same with Armenia.
What would happen is America stopped investing into Israel is the dampening of Israel’s fighting capability and the cut off for supply chains that are sponsoring a genocide. We can also stop just giving them money for it. Eventually, rightfully, their neighbors would do them in.
Cut the obtuse shit. Because if it’s just “neighbor vs neighbor” why are we funding it at all?
I’m not trying to argue in bad faith. First I think the US shouldn’t fund it at all, no matter why there is a genocide.
But regarding the neighbour conflict, I want to explain: Your argument seems to be that what happens in Gaza is something singular or special, tied to the colonialist nature of the funding of the modern Israel. I don’t see that. In Germany there was a discussion about the singularity of the Shoah. I have doubts about this too but it’s an understandable notion to have as a “perpetrator nation”. The Shoah however was a genocide of real neighbours, like next door neighbours. And it was unprecedented in the cruelty and the industrial scope of the extermination. But I don’t think it couldn’t happen again. And this is an example of one of the worst genocides in history which didn’t even require a colonialist setting, not even a neighbouring nation or people with which you had hostilities dating back centuries. And that’s the reason why I refute the argument that this genocide is in any way special just because it’s rooted in a colonialist setting.
I really don’t understand your line of reasoning at all. No one said the genocide in Palestine is unique because of the settler aspect. Genocides have already been performed in the name of that cause in the Americas by European settlers. It is still qualitatively different from the genocides in Darfur and Armenia (which you brought up) but that does not make it unique.
Moreover, even if it is not unique, it does not mean genocides are ubiquitous. That is what it seems to me you are trying to say but it’s hard to tell because I can’t follow your logic at all. Claiming that tensions between neighbouring states are common is something that should require proof. And then claiming that it often escalated to genocides should require even more proof. Colonialists and settlers trivialise their atrocities by blaming it on human nature and stuff like that. But that’s just a cheap move to universalise the capitalist and imperialist logical of accumulation. It is perfectly possible for neighbours to live in peace. You probably have a neighbour. Why haven’t they driven you out of your home and laid a claim to it? Or you then? Almost all countries are not genociding their neighbours? Why is that?
You’re right that if the U.S. stopped sending weapons and money today, Israel would not literally collapse tomorrow. The point is that Israel cannot do its genocide and attack its neighbors without constant U.S. support. They’d be forced to the bargaining table within weeks. If Israel was too stubborn to bargain or its victims were uninterested in negotiations after watching a genocide right in front of them, Israel would lose on the battlefield.
The collapse wouldn’t happen literally overnight, but it’d be soon and inevitable.
The US sees the existence of Israel as strategically important. The constant flow of weapons and other resources into it is clear evidence of this (if the words of it’s leaders somehow wasn’t).
Before the US it was the UK and for a time even Nazi Germany, albeit before Israel formally existed.
If the US knew that Israel could fill it’s strategic role without further investment it would transfer those resources to another project. That’s ample evidence that Israel requires these resources.
The US didn’t create a state governed and populated by radicals, but they required it.
Yes I agree with you that Israel requires these resources to continue it’s militaristic course of action with the goal of extermination. If it didn’t have these resources anymore, it wouldn’t cease to exist. It would need to change this course if it wants to survive.
Fair point. Such a change of course would likely mean less genocide (although the existence of nuclear weapons makes this somewhat less than guaranteed).
That said, a less secure Israel might lose a large chunk of it’s population and industry. Many Israelis have dual citizenships that make leaving fairly easy. Israel as we know it could very well collapse.
Israel as we know it could very well collapse.
That’s what my point was. I think there was difference in semantics between me and the lemmee user in regard to what we meant by collapse. But they tossed in the “hatred in neighbours” drivel so I decided it better to not engage faithfully.
No I agree with you both. It seems very likely that such a collapse would then start to manifest. What do you think would be the long-term result of this?
israel is for all intents and purposes, an unsinkable aircraft carrier designed to permanently destabilize the ME, there can’t be any course change.
Both Bush and Reagan at one point threatened to cut support of Israel if they didn’t stop what they were doing and Israel complied.
f American investment in Israel would stop now, of course the country wouldn’t cease to exist.
It would.
I found a YouTube link in your post. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
