Is there any veracity to the claim that “the PSL covered up SA allegations”? I hear it a lot in discussions surrounding the PSL. I wanna know if this is a valid concern
OP you are engaging in my mind in unacceptable wrecker behavior.
You are attempting to suppress votes for the only anti-imperialist, socialist party on the ballot nationwide in the US on election day.
The time to ask this question was a week ago, a month ago, 3 days ago, time for people to have a discussion without a deadline looming to cast a ballot for them or not.
Doing this at the 11th hour reads to me as an attempt to suppress votes for them, to perhaps even attempt to get some lurkers to vote Democrat instead by causing issues and concern that they’re voting for abusive people.
Since we’re in the court, I move that OP be given a temp ban until the election is over and this thread be locked and removed as should all other discussion on this as wrecker behavior.
Why couldn’t any of you have brought this up a week ago? A month ago? We’ve long been supporting PSL’s candidates and discussing our imminent votes for them for some time and people would have been happy to discuss it. But there was silence, no threads, no major discussions on it. Now at this opportune moment you break ranks, you deploy these accusations in an inflammatory thread on election day without proper time for a discussion, raising emotional tensions against PSL right as we most need people to vote for them.
So why now? I’m disgusted by people dredging up this shit on this day of all days. It’s transparent what it is. It isn’t good faith, it isn’t helpful or useful. Even if it’s all true what are you going to do about it? How else are you going to signal on the ballot as an American a support for the agenda of socialism, a vote against war with China and Russia?
There is a time for discussion and a time for solidarity and closing of ranks and showing any left-leaning people who browse our instance that we support Claudia de la Cruz and they should too rather than voting Democrat. Today is a day for closing of ranks. Tomorrow will be a day for litigating any problems we may have with our movement.
This is peak western left in-fighting, ill and unacceptably timed.
This is how you get people to see through your party and NOT want to vote for them. Bourgeois democracy is literally not ever that serious, it is a symbolic protest vote and matters so SO much less than SA allegations true or not. Calling someone who wants to make sure they aren’t supporting SA protectors a “wrecker” (again, whether the allegations are true or not and there are certainly true ones) is a misogynist reaction to real concerns that only shows that women are unsafe in the PSL. One more vote for Claudia is not worth that.
OP you are engaging in my mind in unacceptable wrecker behavior.
You are attempting to suppress votes for the only pro-democracy, democratic party on the ballot nationwide in the US on election day.
The time to ask this question was a week ago, a month ago, 3 days ago, time for people to have a discussion without a deadline looming to cast a ballot for them or not.
Doing this at the 11th hour reads to me as an attempt to suppress votes for them, to perhaps even attempt to get some lurkers to vote Republican instead by causing issues and concern that they’re voting for abusive people.
Since we’re in the court, I move that OP be given a temp ban until the election is over and this thread be locked and removed as should all other discussion on this as wrecker behavior.
Why couldn’t any of you have brought this up a week ago? A month ago? We’ve long been supporting Joe Biden and discussing our imminent votes for him for some time and people would have been happy to discuss it. But there was silence, no threads, no major discussions on it. Now at this opportune moment you break ranks, you deploy these accusations in an inflammatory thread on election day without proper time for a discussion, raising emotional tensions against Biden right as we most need people to vote for him.
So why now? I’m disgusted by people dredging up this shit on this day of all days. It’s transparent what it is. It isn’t good faith, it isn’t helpful or useful. Even if it’s all true what are you going to do about it? How else are you going to signal on the ballot as an American a support for the agenda of the Democrats, a vote for abortion?
There is a time for discussion and a time for solidarity and closing of ranks and showing any left-leaning people who browse our instance that we support Joe Biden and they should too rather than voting Republican. Today is a day for closing of ranks. Tomorrow will be a day for litigating any problems we may have with our movement.
This is peak western left in-fighting, ill and unacceptably timed.
This is a perfect 2020 post about Tara Reade, with some modifications.
To be fair, PSL isn’t a monolith, and the US is filled with misogynists and horrible men in general. Awful that people in power in the org covered it up, even for a single branch it should be all that we’re against. Here’s a mega link with criticisms and accounts of SA
Will note I disagree with a good portion of the public criticisms section as some are Maoist/Trotskyist takes but the first hand accounts here are worth listening to. I think a big problem here is the lack of transperancy and purposefully hindered communication (cadre in branches are told not to each talk to each other except through leadership) and overall too much centralization without the democratic part. Considering the anti-indigenity found in their socialist reconstruction program as well as by other indigenous groups interactions with them (I would suggest reading the Red Nation link in the drive), you could also tie this in with their settler politics as a whole.
I will also note the organization has a history of calling people who disagree with their line or mention the cases of SA as “adventurists” “wreckers” or the like. This is where the danger steps in, PSL is a deeply imperfect org and even the black panthers should and would take SA seriously.
don’t know why anyone is shocked about this it’s a problem in every national communist party I’ve ever heard of. urge reckoning with reality instead of hand waving violence against women!
I know the entire PSL party went out of their way to discredit of SA victim, bring all their media people to destroy her. No wait that was the democratic party and Tara Reade.
I know the entire PSL party went out of their way to discredit of SA victim,
I know you’re trying to make a joke, but isn’t this a little uncomfortably close to what happened in Philadelphia?
https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Party_for_Socialism_and_Liberation
Is it only “believe women” when it’s politically convenient?
Is it only “believe women” when it’s politically convenient?
yes, communist men can be fucking gross when it comes to facing the reality that this occurs in many orgs.
What he said was “the entire PSL”, not a branch, and that’s kind of the thing about these accusations, that they are raised to try to claim that the entire Party participated or even had any awareness of the reality of the situation in whichever specific chapter, which is not true. Maupin is a real example of what is being insinuated here, with the central leadership being aware of and covering up his actions, among other complicit acts.
I’m not batting for the branch here, cut it off and burn it for all I care, but we need to be clear about the real scope of what happened, and the implicit meaning of “PSL shields predators” is that a Maupin-like situation is happening or something else (like the Catholic Church method) where the PSL has any involvement. No such accusation has been made concretely that I have ever seen, even though insinuations to that effect get made all the time.
The national Twitter account, pslweb, publicly doxed the alleged victim in Philadelphia. The current VP pick signed the letter denying the alleged victim’s claim of SA ( https://www.gnvinfo.com/psl-president-candidate-claudia-de-la-cruz-responds-to-infamous-steven-powers-case/ ).
There are something like 5 cities with issues named in the prolewiki article, a source that’s pretty friendly to PSL.
I don’t hate PSL, but it’s super gross to act like there isn’t a kernel of truth here. Maybe it’s an issue with organizing in the U$ as a whole, I don’t know, but it’s fucked up to ignore it.
Just a clarification :p we aren’t necessarily friendly (or unfriendly) to any party, but we also can only write about what we can back up. In the case of PSL’s controversy section ref 14 is a huge repository of many primary accounts, though I haven’t followed their own links, but I would start with that catalog as it has tons more links that I saw
Thanks for the clarification!
I forgot to mention it also comes down to who edits a page and what they want to say. We know for example from someone who tried out with PSL that they’re not great at all on indigenous issues (but no party is in the US) but they haven’t got around to editing that in.
Fair enough!
Sure, that’s more like the “Catholic Church method”, as I called it, so then insinuations about the whole organization on the basis of that case are warranted.
That said, doesn’t the denial dox use the (potentially) real name of the girl who the boyfriend cheated on the alleged victim with, who the alleged victim alleged was another victim? The article only mentions that person by name in one place and doesn’t mention outing or doxxing. I don’t know, this is hard to follow.
I do need to defend myself though that I absolutely did not say anything should be ignored, I was simply saying that the scope of the claims and people’s actions should be kept in mind. It was PSL stepping in to deny this that is potentially the problem with “PSL” as an organization rather than “PSL Philadelphia” or whichever other chapter. Am I making sense? If some guy commits a murder, that doesn’t mean his whole household was complicit in it unless they actually do things to help him (accomplish it, get away with it, etc.). What I am saying is that if it was the guy (chapter) acting on his own, put him on trial and sentence him appropriately. It’s only if the household (overall organization) seemingly intervened at some point in the process that pronouncements like “the household is guilty” becomes relevant. And then you kindly provided evidence toward that latter end, so I agree with you that such pronouncements are relevant.
Thanks for the measured reply! It’s easy for me to get heated when I feel like I’m getting boxed into a position I don’t really hold.
No need for a defense of yourself re my “ignored” comment - apologies for insinuating that you were. That’s more of a rhetorical device reflecting my frustration with the topic as a whole.
On the doxxing, I think “Griselda” (the alleged victim’s pseudonym) did name the other girl involved in at least a Twitter post. There’s a screenshot of a Twitter post in one of those docs where she’s asking pslweb to take down her own real name, and I think they had her name in the now-removed letter that was signed.
Idk, this shit is complicated and there’s way too much to read.
*One edit: regarding your chapter/national split, I mostly agree, but I think a situation poorly handled by a local chapter still does reflect poorly on the national org. They’re the local representative of the national org.
Thanks for clearing things up.
*One edit: regarding your chapter/national split, I mostly agree, but I think a situation poorly handled by a local chapter still does reflect poorly on the national org. They’re the local representative of the national org.
Yeah, I probably should have specified that this is true, but I was trying to avoid getting too in the weeds and made an error. My thing is that a chapter going to hell without the direct worsening of things by the national org is more a problem of negligence or poor construction of their onboarding systems, etc. rather than being culpable themselves of harboring abusers. Both are still harmful behaviors and should be treated as such and it’s possible PSL did both (the case is very murky, as you say), but I just want to be clear on the standards I’m asserting for guilt since it isn’t something one should speak lightly on.
Fair enough!
I can not believe u just made me read several long ass articles about a woman who was salty she got cheated on and decided to take revenge by having her ex kicked from psl. Like even IF literally everything she said was true i dont think he even did anything illegal (tho certainly enough to get kicked from an org) but there is no evidence at all that anything is true, u and every article makes it sound like this guy is beyond any doubt a rapists, like its just like any other scandal of a rape coverup we have heard about, but its literally just her voice against his and there is no reason at all to believe either, and i (and i hope everyone else) am not inclined to treat someone as one of the worst kinds of people there are just because someone said so.
Considering how long it took me to work thru this one i dont really feel like looking at all the other incidents in other branches listed in the source for the article u linked but the Philadelphia story is just a nothing burger, it bothers me so much that someone can just be like “actually PSL sucks they cover for rapists” and then im worried cuz i dont want to vote for or be part of the so called “Predator Support League” so i want to look into it and like an hour of reading later its just nothing like literally nothing and im kinda upset.
I didn’t make you do shit.
As much evidence exists here as in the Tara Reade case.
i mean u didnt put a gun to my head, but, i would think anyone with a conscience would read about something like this and i would think u know that.
Accusations to discredit leftist organisations are so severe that you should only believe it if there’s hard proof. Let those accusers give some actual evidence then
It’s in the prolewiki article: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Party_for_Socialism_and_Liberation
I saw two relevant links there.
This one is an account of someone who helped someone else accuse a PSL member of misogyny and sexual misconduct. The author later accuses the PSL of trying to cover this up. The accusation appears to be:
She told me that she had just caught S* cheating the night before and was kicking him out. She detailed to me the past events, of him cheating on her with M*, of coercing her into unprotected sex, constantly leaving in the middle of the night to go “patrol M*’s house” but coming back drunk, etc.
Taking all of this at face value, it’s one accusation that rises to the level of something the PSL would want to investigate (one member coercing another into unprotected sex) and a mix of things I’m not sure an organization needs to investigate at all (cheating, being drunk at night).
I haven’t read the entire post, but I did read the text screenshots the author provided of conversations they had with the PSL. It looks like the PSL investigators kept asking for documentation relevant to the accusations (additional screenshots) that didn’t seem to be provided, and aren’t included in this tell-all post. If you start an investigation, ask for corroboration the accuser says exists, and they don’t provide it, I don’t think it’s a cover up if you close the investigation.
This is the second link, but it’s not working well enough for me to read it.
This whole thing reeks of anarchist-style wrecking, and ppl elevating a relationship breakup to try to take down a nationwide party.
Yeah. And honestly western intel loves using progressive sounding things to attack the left. They used fabricated rape allegations to try and extradite Assange for instance and if I was part of western intelligence it would be a go-to as it’s just obviously so useful.
Now I’m sure it does happen, maybe PSL even has a big problem with it, maybe but on the other hand a certain skepticism is necessary balanced with the knowledge that for example Trots tend to form cults full of sexual abuse and predation. Any time you have members romancing and having sexual relations with others you’re going to eventually end up with drama and accusations from people hurting each other intentionally or not and lashing out harshly in the aftermath of that hurt. Add in western intelligence, wreckers who aren’t even paid, etc and you have a formula for disaster.
Isn’t it interesting too that this thread pops up on election day when many here and linked instances might be thinking of voting for PSL’s candidates? A little propaganda push at the last minute to push people to vote Democrat instead. The timing is unacceptable and I think for that reason it reeks of manipulation and even would be fair target for a lock and sinking until the election is over as the time to bring this up was a week ago as we’ve been discussing supporting PSL’s candidate for months and only now is this deployed for maximum damage and disillusionment.
In fact that’s what I suggest. Locking this and banning discussion on it until this evening. These people are attempting to cause the drama and dissuade people from voting for the only socialist, anti-imperialist party on the ballot is disgusting behavior. If people had issues they had plenty of time in the lead-up to vent while giving PSL’s supporters time to respond. Instead this is deployed at the 11th hour to obviously suppress enthusiasm for the party on the ballot in the US on vote day. That’s wrecker behavior, that’s bad faith.
Actually you’re right, my apologies.
Any acknowledgement of fucking rape is actually just a cynical ploy to make a party that was never going to win the election lose the election.
Actually you’re right, my apologies.
Any acknowledgement of fucking rape is actually just a cynical ploy to make a party that was never going to win the election lose the election.
Quoting here because this person admits they delete most of their comments after a week and I want context for my replies.
Calm the fuck down. Stop acting foolish.
There is a time and place for all things. Any other day, any day outside of today and maybe yesterday. Most of the year is an appropriate time. This day of all days is not okay. Cry about it because for one lousy day or two I think it’s inappropriate to air this stuff given it doesn’t even personally involve violations by the candidates and is just hurting them by association.
I don’t think that’s extreme. Given these are not new accusations, dredging them up at this moment is clearly sabotage meant to harm the votes they get and enthusiasm for the party and the larger movement. Again, it’s fine to discuss these at a reasonable time and place. Unlike the Democrats whose reasonable time and place for dissension from their party is a few weeks every 2 years between midterms the time for this IMO is just about every day except election day and the days immediately before it. There have been months of time to bring this up during which I wouldn’t bring these accusations, if they made these 24 hours later I also wouldn’t care. But they didn’t do that. They deployed them strategically at the worst possible moment. And when they’ve had all this time, months and months and years to discuss this given it wasn’t a surprise Cruz is who we’re voting for and she’s PSL the fact they waited until now is not right.
I need to calm down, but you feel comfortable calling multiple people here federal agents? For acknowledging things that have been public knowledge for literal years?
If PSL wanted this to not be brought up at inconvenient times, they could’ve worked with every party until they were satisfied. You can’t leave a sore festering, and then get upset when it gets picked at at an inconvenient time.
Removed by mod
I think maybe you haven’t read into it much? There’s a lot of different people’s accounts and story threads.
PSL’s national leadership was at least tangentially involved ( by doxing the alleged victim over Twitter, and Karina Garcia signing the statement saying she wasn’t SA’ed).
I still think PSL is the better of the U$ parties, but I think it’s a mistake to not acknowledge that they have issues.
I still think PSL is the better of the U$ parties, but I think it’s a mistake to not acknowledge that they have issues.
On election day of all days? And none of you people see this as an obvious attempt to suppress the vote support for PSL?
We are not a PSL instance, we are not run by PSL. But I will point out that there are certain aspects of Dem-Cent that might be helpful to understand. Namely that once a decision is made by the party the party adheres to that line in public. They do not break ranks or show dissension. Now we could say that the US as a whole has failed to field any other socialist party and therefore we as a whole as a movement have elected PSL as our representatives.
We don’t owe them adhering to their party line if we’re not members but I think we owe them not criticizing them, being tactful in our timing of criticism of them not to do so at the last minute in a way that inflames feelings against voting for them on election day.
Just as we do not criticize and air our problems with say Iran on the day they are at the height of danger and anti-western propaganda for a war against them, it’s wise not to air our problems with PSL on this fucking day when all the signature work they’ve done to get on the ballot is on the fucking line.
Because there isn’t time for many people to sort through those feelings and act dispassionately and the concrete impact of a post like this on election day mere hours before some people vote is people will avoid voting for PSL on the national ballot because of this and feeling icky if they do so.
So OP is costing the movement visible support. They are an enemy of socialism in my mind even if an unintentional one. Socialists need to be more mindful and thoughtful than OP has shown themselves capable of being.
No one, least of all me is saying we can’t ever talk about this, that we have to be silent on this or that we can’t criticize PSL. What I am saying is the time for this discussion was 48+ hours ago or 24 hours from now. That’s a lot of time (this is no secret, we’ve known PSL would be the US candidate on the national level for 6+ months) and it’s telling this question was deployed NOW. Not earlier when there was time and passions would recede and people would still make the logical choice to vote PSL as Marxists, but now when it can inflict maximum damage and suppression and cause maximum drama and strife.
I massively disagree with you here, but I’m letting my emotions run heavy.
What I was trying to communicate with responding to this thread (edit: I mean like to the post originally /) is “yes, some people have (potential credibly) accused PSL of shielding abusers. There are only a few cases over the years.”.
This shit is so old and so chewed over that we should be able to just acknowledge it and move forward. CPUSA has massive structural problems, and we’re able to acknowledge those and still support the comrades who choose to work with them.
I understand that you feel like the election aspect is important, but I just can’t care. They’re going to, maybe, pick up a few thousand votes. I thought the point of the electoralism was the pr leading up to the election? Who cares about the 5 votes that might be swayed by this?
but I’m letting my emotions run heavy.
Which is exactly the problem with this post on this day and my entire point. Thanks for making it for me again.
It doesn’t matter the scale. What matters is the problem it causes. If they dissuade 10,000 people and swing a state for Kamala is it a problem then? When is it a problem? The fact is we’re not going to win. But the fact is the point isn’t to win but to do enough damage to the major parties that people take notice and look into it. PSL volunteers sweated hard getting signatures to get on the ballot in so many states and you’re just saying their effort was wasted. That it doesn’t matter. That it’s okay to throw it away. Anyways to my point, any suppression of support, especially on a platform like this on a day like today is not okay. It attacks the work of those people.
Also PSL is nowhere near the issues of CPUSA. One that regularly tails Democrats and embraces lesser evilism. On a theoretical basis CPUSA is not even in the running to be a vanguard or a party people can look to given its national leadership. I don’t care for arguments about oh local branches this or that, I’ve seen the same thing with DSA and the fact is national has too much power for that to ever really matter.
This might give a little more context for the first one:
My read of the situation is that PSL told Griselda (pseudonym of the alleged victim) that she wasn’t assaulted, and then kept the alleged assaulter in the party.
I once heard a similar thing about Tjen Folket here in Norway.
the burden of proof is on the people claiming that, not on us or the psl.
https://archive.is/yT5vp#selection-42.0-42.1
Just saw this from the other link shared…
There’s true stories behind it, you’ll have to judge if what you hear is reflective of the truth.
It’s covered in the controversies section here: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Party_for_Socialism_and_Liberation
