I am down with this and even some more, except regarding having to pay for interpreters after 3 years. Working folks are hardly going to have the time to learn a whole ass language to proficiency in just 3 years, especially with kids to take care of
I moved to France,not able to speak a word, and within 3 years, I was working in a french only environment. It’s difficult, and I won’t pretend that everyone will have my luck, and opportunities,but it’s not unreasonable either.
Good for you, but an older person, especially near retiring age would not be able to pick up a language that quickly normally. Especially with the depth required to handle complex legal or medical matters, while also working full time just to make ends meet. And if on top of that, they are taking care of kids, which is a very common scenario for older migrants, that seems like too much of a stretch.
I agree, it’s very difficult to change habits as you get older, but the hardest thing is to put yourself out there, and not be afraid of making mistakes, and actually put in the monumental effort required to integrate. Older people who I have met, are more likely to find a bubble of people who speak the same language.
I was lucky, I was only 28 when I arrived, and my wife is french, hence why I am lucky.
It is not so much a matter of changing habits, often migrants such as my parents take their elderly with them to the new country, leave their kids with them, and go to work, so their elderly parents get stuck in a new country, without speaking the language and being basically the only guardian their grandkids have.
Hell, my grandmother went from being a teacher in the old country, to a nanny who never managed to learn how to speak the local language, despite learning how to read and write in it, to a college level.
Most languages are far from phonetically true, and a lot of languages lack written accents. Things aren’t as black and white as you make them seem.
Our ability to learn simply degrades a lot even in our 30s-40s, and for elderly it’s just impossible. Read and write - maybe, but actually speaking - no, and it’s not a matter of effort.
If you need to use a language for ten years in a fully immersed setting and have not learned conversational level skills, the issue is that you didn’t really try, no matter your age.
I can understand if someone has a learning disability, but that is a small fraction of people.
Imagine utiliser un ordinateur chaque jour pendant 10 ans et ne pas savoir comment l’utiliser. Est-ce que c’est un problème de l’outil qui est trop difficile ou un problème utilisateur?
Si pendant 10 ans , tu résides dans un pays sans en apprendre le langage, est-ce que c’est un problème du langage ou de la personne qui le parle?
Les vieilles personnes sont capables d’apprendre, bien qu’en vieillissant, notre capacité d’assimilation de l’information et de la connaissance diminue. Il faut donc mettre plus d’effort pour apprendre, mais rien d’impossible.
De mon expérience, les vieilles personnes qui n’ont jamais appris la langue de leur pays d’accueil, c’est parce qu’il se sont toujours fiés à quelqu’un d’autre pour traduire. Ce n’est pas un problème d’apprentissage, c’est un problème d’attitude. C’est acceptable au début lorsque la personne arrive fraichement dans le pays d’accueil, mais si après 10 ans, il te faut encore un traducteur pour commander au restaurant, c’est un problème de ne jamais avoir essayé.
Enfin, mon point initial a toujours été d’avoir un niveau conversationnel, pas technique.
Même dans notre langue maternelle, c’est normal de ne pas comprendre le jargon technique.
Edit: j’ai changé un mot pour que mon français soit plus neutre.
I am down with this and even some more, except regarding having to pay for interpreters after 3 years. Working folks are hardly going to have the time to learn a whole ass language to proficiency in just 3 years, especially with kids to take care of
I moved to France,not able to speak a word, and within 3 years, I was working in a french only environment. It’s difficult, and I won’t pretend that everyone will have my luck, and opportunities,but it’s not unreasonable either.
Good for you, but an older person, especially near retiring age would not be able to pick up a language that quickly normally. Especially with the depth required to handle complex legal or medical matters, while also working full time just to make ends meet. And if on top of that, they are taking care of kids, which is a very common scenario for older migrants, that seems like too much of a stretch.
I agree, it’s very difficult to change habits as you get older, but the hardest thing is to put yourself out there, and not be afraid of making mistakes, and actually put in the monumental effort required to integrate. Older people who I have met, are more likely to find a bubble of people who speak the same language. I was lucky, I was only 28 when I arrived, and my wife is french, hence why I am lucky.
It is not so much a matter of changing habits, often migrants such as my parents take their elderly with them to the new country, leave their kids with them, and go to work, so their elderly parents get stuck in a new country, without speaking the language and being basically the only guardian their grandkids have.
Hell, my grandmother went from being a teacher in the old country, to a nanny who never managed to learn how to speak the local language, despite learning how to read and write in it, to a college level.
Most languages are far from phonetically true, and a lot of languages lack written accents. Things aren’t as black and white as you make them seem.
Our ability to learn simply degrades a lot even in our 30s-40s, and for elderly it’s just impossible. Read and write - maybe, but actually speaking - no, and it’s not a matter of effort.
I needed over 10 yeara before I was able to communicatd “OK”, 20 to be fluent in French.
Everyone isn’t a language god like you.
If you are fully immersed in another language, it shouldn’t take 10 years to have a coversational skill level. It’s on you.
Only if you are young. Why do people always have opinions, but don’t consider basics?
If you need to use a language for ten years in a fully immersed setting and have not learned conversational level skills, the issue is that you didn’t really try, no matter your age.
I can understand if someone has a learning disability, but that is a small fraction of people.
Wrong. Try and make your grandparents learn a new language in 10 years with them being 50-60 years old.
Judging by this thread you do.
Right, I forgot that we stop learning at 50.
Lets take this conversation to French.
I mean if you are not a little lying bitch :-)
Also you’re goalposting so hard, like now it’s having a “conversional skill”, go write some French lol.
D’accord. On peut parler en français si tu veux.
Imagine utiliser un ordinateur chaque jour pendant 10 ans et ne pas savoir comment l’utiliser. Est-ce que c’est un problème de l’outil qui est trop difficile ou un problème utilisateur?
Si pendant 10 ans , tu résides dans un pays sans en apprendre le langage, est-ce que c’est un problème du langage ou de la personne qui le parle?
Les vieilles personnes sont capables d’apprendre, bien qu’en vieillissant, notre capacité d’assimilation de l’information et de la connaissance diminue. Il faut donc mettre plus d’effort pour apprendre, mais rien d’impossible.
De mon expérience, les vieilles personnes qui n’ont jamais appris la langue de leur pays d’accueil, c’est parce qu’il se sont toujours fiés à quelqu’un d’autre pour traduire. Ce n’est pas un problème d’apprentissage, c’est un problème d’attitude. C’est acceptable au début lorsque la personne arrive fraichement dans le pays d’accueil, mais si après 10 ans, il te faut encore un traducteur pour commander au restaurant, c’est un problème de ne jamais avoir essayé.
Enfin, mon point initial a toujours été d’avoir un niveau conversationnel, pas technique.
Même dans notre langue maternelle, c’est normal de ne pas comprendre le jargon technique.
Edit: j’ai changé un mot pour que mon français soit plus neutre.