I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
My interactions with people complaining about this rule led me to delete my .world account and dust this one off from way back when I first joined Lemmy and was trying to figure things out. Regardless of the behavior of a person, I staunchly will never purposefully misgender them/use the wrong pronouns. If I do it to someone else, then I’m telling the world that it’s okay to dismiss anyone’s identity given the right justification. And that’s patently wrong and shitty.
I’d rather be part of an instance that protects identity, that is made for minorities and those who are often abused by the heteronormative world. Thank you for enforcing this and making a space where I can feel safe as a trans woman.
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but it feels like a subversion of the concept as a whole.
Sometimes that is the point. Some folk who don’t fit in to the binary, but for whom “non binary” isn’t right either, who don’t have the language to describe their experience and feel trapped by the impact of the binary system, and for them, subverting the system itself and dislodging the expectations that come with it is part of the reason they choose their pronouns.
It’s still an act of claiming ones own identity and of reclaiming power, whilst also being a middle finger to the system.
And as I’ve said elsewhere, your opinions or my opinions on the validity of someone elses identity is irrelevant. You can think whatever it is you think, but you don’t get to invalidate their identity in this space, because normalising invalidation for people you don’t understand hurts every gender diverse person more than the act of a single troll.
Edit - And I removed your post, because at some point you verged from questioning and trying to gain understanding, to outright invalidation. If you can remove those parts, I’ll restore the post
I couldn’t figure out how to edit it while it was “removed” so I just deleted it, it probably isn’t really helpful for me to have a post on this that is, in essence “I won’t misgender you buuuuuut” and dump all my misconceptions and realizations about irrational anxieties like y’all are my therapist. I agree with you, no matter what I believe respect requires using somebody’s preferred pronouns.
I think it’s time to block this community and it’s gatekeeping mods that remove any and all that disagree with protecting a troll.
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I think this page gives some good info on Neopronouns for those who might not be entirely in the know about them.
Unless someones pronouns are in their username they’re getting a “they” from me. Nothing against xe/xim/xir but i ain’t checking every profile of every person I debate about whether Sonic would be tempted or double tempted by the One Ring.
i always just use they/them as a default until i know the correct pronouns because it’s the most universally genetic anyway :3
Personally I use they/them until I get corrected on it. It’s my default.
It being my default of course means that a lot of the time I’ll keep using it even after being corrected. That’s not from a position of intolerance though, it’s from a position of habit.
And also given the amount of people I engage with online I’m not going to remember every person I interact with, especially given how sparsely I actually respond to people and my response time to people.
Basically y’all are a field of ever changing faces I’ll likely never see again let alone IRL, I’m going to stick to they/them for 99% of our interactions.
what about, it? though a issue would be sexism as people could use it to call women objects.
Hold on, I’m she/they.
Now can we discuss this FASCINATING topic??? Do we think the one ring would hold multiple ring value? Would Sonic turn invisible or just absorb it? How does the ring affect sonic if it is absorbed? What happens if he collects 100 One Rings? I have so many questions.
(adorable little Timmy voice) “He would turn into Sonic dot E X E and kill us all!!”
Battle Network intensifies
Holy crap! A
Megamanreference???Yeah… Pretty much my whole childhood Special Interest.
People remember the existence of the battle network megaman games, not just the platformers!?
What about would happen if the rings forged for man, dwarves, and elves (19 in all) were collected by Sonic along with the One Ring? Sonic could be like… a super ring wraith.
Then we put the Chaos Emeralds in the mix, and things get extra spicy.
It really depends on which sonic we are talking about, SEGA Genius Sonic, Sonic Adventures Sonic, one of the western animation Sonics, Anime Sonic, Live Action Sonic? If it’s Archie Comics Sonic then the power scale goes right out the window.
live action Sonic
or
Is the One Ring even categorically different from power rings?
That’s a fair problem, Lemmy and the mobile apps need a feature where you can see peoples pronouns beside their names. Voyager doesn’t even let me see anything besides someones username and instance, even on the profile page so I can’t even look for their pronouns even if I wanted
We got names for that. It is hard adjusting to nonbinary people in a language that does not support nongendered pronouns but names and nicknames are sociacialy accepted and carry the same respect as a correct pronoun.
You could use Voyager’s user tagging feature to tag people with their pronouns
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This is a problem for less than 1% of society.
Yes, and? So if a minority is small enough then it’s okay to be an asshole to them?
And there’s 8 billion people on earth, 1% of that is still 80 million people that somehow don’t deserve respect?
The incredibly overwhelming majority of people do not care at all about theirs or others pronouns
Try calling a grown-ass man a ‘she’ and see how quickly he starts caring.
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Bisexual and transphobic, what a goddamn shame.
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As far as I’m aware more than 99% of people have pronouns and most of them would prefer not being called by the wrong ones
Which is why “they” and “them” and “you” exist. If this WAS a big concern for the majority then you would already have pronouns in all the apps instead of not a single one. The fact it’s not there is the proof you need that most people don’t think about this until it’s brought up by you guys.
You might be a cis agender person considering how you talk about gender. Fascinating stuff imo.
Thank you for that link. I might have learned something new about myself.
Happy to be of service!
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I know suddenly being told your experience isn’t universal might be scary. But cis people do in fact care about their pronouns. If you don’t, well, I’m sorry to say it, but you are part of what you perceive as less than 1%. Which btw, is most likely a lot more than 1%
The latest numbers coming out of the US say 5% of young adults identify as trans. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/
It’s way over 1%, and it’s gonna get even higher.
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blahaj.zone is better about it, but much of Lemmy even just defaults to “he”
This is the only reasonable way to handle this situation. I’m all about making sure people are comfortable, but making-up words and then getting offended when people don’t use them properly is bonkers. I truly don’t mean to offend anyone, but this is getting out of hand.
yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao
that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear
Lemmy seems to be getting worse unfortunately :\
Hi Ada, I stepped in to lock the post and put a stop to the drama, but maybe I should have acted sooner. Our admins have got no problem with respecting drag’s pronouns or anyone else’s. The social conservatives seem emboldened since Trump was re-elected imo. It sucks.
You literally didn’t though? You locked someone else’s post, but not PugJesus’ post. You also regurgitated the same stupid line about “dragon fucker isn’t a gender” that literally has nothing to do with drag’s pronouns. Way to try and curry favour like you care when you clearly, in fact, do not.
This is a bad faith comment tbh. I locked the second post on this topic soon after I was messaged about it. It didn’t seem as heated as the other post I previously locked which is why I’d left it unlocked originally. Perhaps it took a while for that lock to be federated to the blajah instance?
And for the record, that’s not what I said, you are (inaccurately) paraphrasing. I do think that drag is a irredeemable troll, but I have always used drag’s pronouns to the best of my ability. Just because drag might be trans doesn’t excuse drag’s behaviour towards other users. We adopt a “fuck around and find out” rule towards trolls and drag fucked around one time too many.
I don’t have any opinion on the validity or otherwise of neo-pronouns, I’m not interested in litigating the topic because the discussion always turns toxic - I simply reminded our members to respect pronouns even if they don’t agree with or understand them.
If my actions seem like “currying favour” to you, then I can only say that you seem to be determined to take offense.
“paraphrasing”
yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i’m just trying to take offence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag’s pronouns shouldn’t factor into that.
in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus’ post, which you hadn’t locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.
It’s sad to see transphobia being perpetuated on this instance (dbzer0), by an admin nonetheless. Guess it’s time to switch instances.
thank you for replying to their message as well, i really didn’t have the spoons too. you’re more than welcome here at blahaj 💜
“paraphrasing”
yea, i did a bit i suppose. however i think the intent of the above cw is pretty clear. or maybe i’m just trying to take offence. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
The CW differentiates between “misgendering” as usually understood by mainstream folks (i.e., calling a trans-man a woman or vice versa) and the more inclusive concept of “misgendering” (maybe I used the wrong term here??) Ada posted about which includes imaginary identities and pronouns, such as fantasy creatures etc. I think the first meaning is widely accepted (at least among social progressives) but the second is perhaps not, which is why I made the distinction. If you can suggest a more appropriate wording for the CW that will be understood by most folks then I’ll be happy to consider revising the wording. I also reminded our users to respect pronouns no matter what they are, even if they don’t understand or agree with them.
you allowed a user to come and say a bunch of gross shit in your comm, you fostered a space for transphobia. drag is absolutely an irredeemable troll but drag’s pronouns shouldn’t factor into that.
FYI, I’m not in fact a mod of that community. I only stepped in because I got a lot of reports about this topic and thought it was going off the rails. And generally I prefer to leave user comments intact in that community rather than removing them, since I think it’s useful to keep a record of the discussion for future reference. Thus the CW approach on this occasion.
in any case, the conversation above was about PugJesus’ post, which you hadn’t locked when you replied here. if you were choosing to leave one of the two posts unlocked, you could have said so, but you acted like the issue was definitively resolved.
The actual chain of events was 1. receiving a bunch of reports about one post (the first one I locked); 2. coming across this post and expressing solidarity with Ada; 3. receiving a message about the second post; and 4. locking that post too. PugJesus was in fact active in both posts and there was a lot of topic overlap.
I’m sorry I didn’t act sooner, but it’s xmas and I have other IRL stuff going on. I’m also sorry you folks at blajah have received so much abuse simply for trying to be an inclusive and safe space for trans people. I do my best to be supportive of trans folks and of your instance, but I totally acknowledge I’m not an expert on the topic and may have worded things poorly. If you want to attack me for that, then go ahead I guess, but on a personal note, I am a 50yo gay man who has also faced discrimination and abuse in my life, so please have some consideration for my feelings too, because being (imo) unfairly accused of being transphobic is hurtful. Thanks.
Misgendering is misgendering, fullstop, no distinction to be made. They aren’t “imaginary identities” they are just identities. It’s sad to see transphobia being spouted by an instance admin of what I formerly considered a safe instance to be apart of.
By considering invalidating neopronouns to not be “misgendering” you are essentially invalidating those identities, and certainly doing so by calling them “imaginary”.
Additionally, perpetuating transphobia at all is disgusting. There shouldn’t be a cw, it should be removed, and the user should be banned. The modlog has logs if seeing the context is needed.
Thank you! It’s been eye opening to see just how many of them there are active on lemmy :/
I want to share the above person’s comment regarding drag while locking that post:
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/15649022
As well, the post that user locked was not the main post, that was left unlocked for at least another 12 hours. There were two.
I didn’t want to report this as I didn’t want to face repercussion from moderators/admin on that instance.
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thanks for being around, ada. the work you do is greatly appreciated, even if it’s not readily apparent all the time.
imo @MossyFeathers said it best in an edit they made to this comment, quoted for visibility:
the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.
You disgust me.Damn, it’s really weird to see myself getting quoted in a completely different thread, lol. Tbh, I’m not sure I handled myself all that well; however, in my defense, I was really pissed off because it’s no where near the first time I’ve seen people claim an identity was false, nor was it the first time I’ve seen someone treat pronouns like a reward for good behavior. I don’t agree that using “gender” in the way drag was using it is the correct way of using it, it seems like using a hammer on a screw; however, that’s not really for me to decide.
Drama subs are kind of a guilty pleasure for me, which was why I was there in the first place (also I browse all). At this point though, I’ve blocked pugjesus and I hope to never see their ass again. Probably gonna go back and block a bunch of the transphobes effectively saying that having your identity/pronouns respected are a privilege and not a right as well. What a bunch of gross, toxic individuals. It also makes me sad and disappointed. Lemmy used to be fun. It’s not really fun anymore.
I definitely didn’t handle myself well in response to this either, so please give yourself some grace. The amount of cis people who were trying to assert that disrespecting drag’s identity was the right thing to do was huge and wildly disappointing. It’s hard to call any of them allies. I’ve been blocking a bunch as well.
it’s raw, and it’s real, and i’m SO glad you typed it out because it’s eloquating some shit that’s been bouncing around my head all nebulous and untouchable like.
and yeah pugjesus is a punk ass. mf has more than triple dipped on being an asshole in just the past 24 hours. anyone who isn’t already in that particular brand of echo chamber would be best off keeping as far away as possible, those kinda toxins are bad for the spirit :/
To be fair, pugjesus is an asshole about a lot of things, not just drag.
/s
I took a look and this is their normal behavior: just the topic du jour that they can use to whip up drama.
i really oughta block that whole comm. there’s something to be said for the value of dissenting opinions, but until they raise a point that isn’t “weird pronouns bad” there’s not a lot there for anyone outside the echo chamber.
i’m starting to think even trying to argue the logic is just an exercise in validating their bullshit when your comments all get dogpiled.
I love how this gets posted for community members, in a meta community, talking about how to engage with our space to not get banned, and then every loser from all comes in here like “umm actually you can’t police my speech and umm pronoun bad” and promptly gets banned for being transphobic and breaking the rules that this post said will be enforced.
the mods and admins are doing a good job here, thanks for all your hard work you put in to make one of my favorite spaces on the internet as wonderful as it is.
Won’t somebody think of the transphobic cishet men?
They’re the real oppressed!
pet pet
Like moths to a light bulb, it would be funny if the banned folks’ behavior wasn’t steeped in hatred
Ada is legit one of the best moderators I’ve seen in my 25 years on the internet.
The admin’s chosen examples, in this thread, include demanding people use a slur, if that’s what some rando insists you insert, instead of the “they” that should work for any human being.
It’s really fucking difficult to argue ‘that absolutist or-else seems like a poor idea’ without sounding wishy-washy - or catching a boot in the ass.
look the whole point of this thread is that if you didn’t want to respect somebody’s pronouns then just don’t interact with them or report them if you think they are genuinely trolling, not encourage them. if you don’t do that so your giving trolls what they want and hurting trans people who do identify with those pronouns.
Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I’ve literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I’m including my own community I run outside of lemmy.
Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it’s incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.
My only problem is when i use singular they them for someone and they have a problem with it. I speak hungarian natively which has no grammatical gender nor gendered pronouns and it makes so much more sense. The whole thing about gender neutral language doesnt exist. But what makes me mad is that other languages that have genders solved it while english is still messing around and every time i use singular they or dude/guy as gender neutral, someone with neopronouns or a right winger has to point out how im incorrect. This is of course not pointed at those who use neopronouns, just as someone who speaks a language where pronouns dont matter it feels kinda useless.
You’re allowed to make mistakes and find it difficult. You’re not allowed to decide that you’re not even going to try. If you are at that point, your options are to get it right, or to not engage with the person in question.
My problem is the intense amount of trolls and the harm that they’ve caused. Ive seen this instance devolve into trolls, counter trolls (trolls), alt accounts (trolls), mods (myself included) not being able to keep up, and admins not doing enough (imo).
and admins not doing enough
perhaps there needs to be more admins or something dunno just a thought *cough*
I completely agree
The alternative, is a queer instance that is built from the ground up with gatekeeping baked in to its core. You may be ok with that. I am not. This instance will never be that.
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I’m in agreement with this, but I think people should complain about the trolling behavior and the abusive behavior, and not about the pronouns, because the trolling and abusive behavior is the real problem. Not people using different pronouns or having non-standard identities.
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i don’t get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that
it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn’t be more complicated than that
I don’t care for neopronouns, but it also doesn’t matter what I think. If it’s REALLY a problem for me, like that person who’s gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won’t refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person’s gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)
I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn’t make that person my god, and I shouldn’t be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don’t follow. I may choose to follow other religions’ conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person’s pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.
I don’t think using someone’s preferred pronoun capitalisation is a worship thing. On My antirealist discord server, capitalised pronouns are the default. If you want lowercase pronouns, you have to pick a role that says so.
I’ve met people who thought capitalised pronouns were a matter of religion. But I’ve also met people who think “he” and “she” pronouns are a matter of religion. They think their gender identities are handed down to them by Elohim, and refusing to use someone’s god-given pronouns is a form of disrespect against their god. They say “My god doesn’t make mistakes”, and think their religious beliefs are a reason to misgender people. I think that if treating people decently means decoupling pronouns from religion, then everyone should decouple pronouns from religion.
Your last point raises a good question.
Mods, if someone says Their pronouns are supposed to be capitalised, will we be called for it if we don’t capitalise Them?
Me omw to make all of my pronouns the full transcript of the Bee Movie
Actually, would that be covered under this rule? Like I would be trolling if I did that, but under a true all-acceptance policy you couldn’t selectively not use those pronouns
I think at that point one can choose to word sentences to not use pronouns at all
As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don’t want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I’m neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
is there a definitive list of pronouns?
No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told
This is a good strategy :)
once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts
This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @[email protected] wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135
how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.
You sound like you’ve got the right idea and a good handle on things. Neopronouns are generally a very case-by-case thing and not at all common, people who use them generally will (politely and without fuss) let you know, and many neopronoun-users (not all but many) also accept they/them. It’s not a thing that comes up a lot, and personally I think people tend to give the concept too much mental bandwidth. The important thing is to be respectful of each individual, if you’re not actively being a dickhead you probably don’t have too much to worry about on that front.
is there a definitive list of pronouns
Not really, there are lists of the more well known ones. But they absolutely are not definitive. Much like gender, prounons are a social construct. It’s just a quickie handhold to communicate how that particular person sees themselves. They’re essentially stereotypes of stereotypes that mold and change over time. Which is why what’s considered women’s work (cooking) and men’s work (grilling) have shifted over time. Redneck, goth, jock & etc are all different forms of gender because it loosely describes how that person presents to the world. So a new gender/prounons is born, valid and inherently correct the moment someone says it. Gender is a social performance and there is no way to do it wrong.
Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
When I was in the early days of my transition, I literally asked the same thing! Good question! You’re right, to put your new name/prounons into your name is inherently sorta doxxing yourself. You’re unfortunately entirely correct that it’s a risk depending on where you live. However the answer is also unfortunate and that’s its worth the risk to most people. All of our situations are different, but without question there are trans folk, out or closeted, that do not get to use their chosen name/prounons in real life. If they don’t use it online, the they effectively don’t get to be correctly identified in any part or their life. It’s out of desperation to be validated in some way. It’s a bummer, but I get it. I’m lucky and privileged enough to be out full time, so I don’t use my name online. But I’m absolutely not gonna judge how another person gets through the day.
