Intro
We would like to address some of the points that have been raised by some of our users (and by one of our communities here on Lemmy.World) on /c/vegan regarding a recent post concerning vegan diets for cats. We understand that the vegan community here on Lemmy.World is rightfully upset with what has happened. In the following paragraphs we will do our best to respond to the major points that we’ve gleaned from the threads linked here.
Links
Actions in question
Admin removing comments discussing vegan cat food in a community they did not moderate.
The comments have been restored.
The comments were removed for violating our instance rule against animal abuse (https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#11-attacks-on-users). Rooki is a cat owner himself and he was convinced that it was scientific consensus that cats cannot survive on a vegan diet. This originally justified the removal.
Even if one of our admins does not agree with what is posted, unless the content violates instance rules it should not be removed. This was the original justification for action.
Removing some moderators of the vegan community
Removed moderators have been reinstated.
This was in the first place a failure of communication. It should have been clearly communicated towards the moderators why a certain action was taken (instance rules) and that the reversal of that action would not be considered (during the original incident).
The correct way forward in this case would have been an appeal to the admin team, which would have been handled by someone other than the admin initially acting on this.
We generally discuss high impact actions among team before acting on them. This should especially be the case when there is no strong urgency on the act performed. Since this was only a moderator removal and not a ban, this should have been discussed among the team prior to action.
Going forward we have agreed, as a team, to discuss such actions first, to help prevent future conflict
Posting their own opposing comment and elevating its visibility
Moderators’ and admins’ comments are flagged with flare, which is okay and by design on Lemmy. But their comments are not forced above the comments of other users for the purpose of arguing a point.
These comments were not elevated to appear before any other users comments.
In addition, Rooki has since revised his comments to be more subjective and less reactive.
Community Responses
The removed comments presented balanced views on vegan cat food, citing scientific research supporting its feasibility if done properly.
Presenting scientifically backed peer reviewed studies is 100% allowed, and encouraged. While we understand anyone can cherry pick studies, if a individual can find a large amount of evidence for their case, then by all accounts they are (in theory) technically correct.
That being said, using facts to bully others is not in good faith either. For example flooding threads with JSTOR links.
The topic is controversial but not clearly prohibited by site rules.
That is correct, at the time there was no violation of site wide rules.
Rooki’s actions appear to prioritize his personal disagreement over following established moderation guidelines.
Please see the above regarding addressing moderator policy.
Conclusions
Regarding moderator actions
We will not be removing Rooki from his position as moderator, as we believe that this is a disproportionate response for a heat-of-the-moment response.
Everybody makes mistakes, and while we do try and hold the site admin staff to a higher standard, calling for folks resignation from volunteer positions over it would not fair to them. Rooki has given up 100’s of hours of his free time to help both Lemmy.World, FHF and the Fediverse as a whole grown in far reaching ways. You don’t immediately fire your staff when they make a bad judgment call.
While we understand that this may not be good enough for some users, we hope that they can be understanding that everyone, no matter the position, can make mistakes.
We’ve also added a new by-laws section detailing the course of action users should ideally take, when conflict arises. In the event that a user needs to go above the admin team, we’ve provided a secure link to the operations team (who the admin’s report to, ultimately). See https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/#12-site-admin-issues-for-community-moderators for details.
TL;DR In the event of an admin action that is deemed unfair or overstepping, moderators can raise this with our operations team for an appeal/review.
Regarding censorship claims
Regarding the alleged censorship, comments were removed without a proper reason. This was out of line, and we will do our best to make sure that this does not happen again. We have updated our legal policy to reflect the new rules in place that bind both our user AND our moderation staff regarding removing comments and content. We WANT users to hold us accountable to the rules we’ve ALL agreed to follow, going forward. If members of the community find any of the rules we’ve set forth unreasonable, we promise to listen and adjust these rules where we can. Our terms of service is very much a living document, as any proper binding governing document should be.
Controversial topics can and should be discussed, as long as they are not causing risk of imminent physical harm. We are firm believers in the hippocratic oath of “do no harm”.
We encourage users to also list pros and cons regarding controversial viewpoints to foster better discussion. Listing the cons of your viewpoint does not mean you are wrong or at fault, just that you are able to look at the issue from another perspective and aware of potential points of criticism.
While we want to allow our users to express themselves on our platform, we also do not want users to spread mis-information that risks causing direct physical harm to another individual, origination or property owned by the before mentioned. To echo the previous statement “do no harm”.
To this end, we have updated our legal page to make this more clear. We already have provisions for attacking groups, threatening individuals and animal harm, this is a logical extension of this to both protect our users and to protect our staff from legal recourse and make it more clear to everyone. We feel this is a very reasonable compromise, and take these additional very seriously.
Sincerely,
FHF / LemmyWorld Operations Team
EDIT: Added org operations contact info
Removed by mod
You missed the point of the post.
This goes beyond the c/vegan issue; it is addressing systematic lemmy issues between admins, moderators, and users.
You know this whole thread is batshit insane when jimmydoreisalefty is actually speaking words of reason.
As one of the biggest shitposters on Lemmy, maybe you wanna sit this one out?
That’s pug Jesus. Although anyone thinking Jimmy dore is a leffy is a fucking idiot
This isn’t about catfood, it’s about moderation.
This is not the topic at hand
Don’t be sorry about the cats, be sorry you missed the main topic of the post.
https://www.benevo.com/vegan-cat-food-from-benevo/
We’ve had safe and healthy variants of vegan cat food for 20 years. Trying to elevate the question to animal abuse speaks entirely to personal ignorance.
Disagreeing = ignorance.
Sounds like a person who’s open to a reasonable discussion lol.
Of course we do. Let’s feed poor animals unnatural food, because we are idiots who overconsume.
My brother in Christ, how do you think normal kibble is made?
Who says that is natural food?
You may want to read these studies on the subject.
So what would the cats choose in the wild?
It’s frankly kinda fucked and cruel to force your beliefs on an animal who has no choice in the matter. I hope you don’t actually own cats
Ok. Didn’t want to go down that route, but we already force cats to do a lot of things, like keep them indoors, give them shots, give them the same food every single day, etc. Some of those things are objectively better for the cat, and better for the small critters that cats murder en masse were cats let out, but they still aren’t what the cat would do in the wild. Many of those things are done for us, the pet owners.
It’s certainly my opinion as well that feeding a cat vegan foods is a reflection of what the owner sees themselves as, this is not for the cat, and I find it absurd. However, as we can see we have already changed many things that a cat would not necessarily choose in the wild; if one can objectively prove that vegan food for a cat, above all else, objectively will do no harm and provide the cat with adequate and correct nutrition, then there is no reason the cat cannot eat vegan food.
While researching another issue, I found some evidence that a vegan diet can be better than the average meat diet. This could be because the meat in pet food is of poor quality and is more likely to be spoiled than plants.
You could of course grow mice or purchase expensive meats but once it is well-rearched, a vegan diet may be a more economical way to provide a good nutrient profile.
“what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”
See, I made sure to point out that “objective” proof would be necessary to validate the position of cats safely eating vegan food.
Y’know, evidence?
Canned (and cooked) tuna, mussels, shrimps, reindeer, rabbit, beef etc of course. /s
Given that pretty much everyone just buys canned pet food or kibble at the store, and most of those are made out of whatever is left over after slaughtering animals for human consumption, the whole point of “forcing your cat to eat against its natural habits” is somewhat moot.
My cat is indoor outdoor and presumably gets his share of mice as well as a mix of kibble, canned and human scraps. He’s not once gravitated to pea protein with taurine additive or whatever weird shit y’all are forcing on what is in effect a carnivore who can’t articulate their wants to you.
I was vegetarian for more than a decade, vegan for a chunk of it. I felt awful the entire time but stuck with it because I was trying to do what I thought was right. Thing is, I had a choice. Cats can’t tell you they’re listless and feel bloated all the time (the way I was during my veggie phase) which has led to full on celiac for me these days
I legit cannot think of a more on the nose allegory for “missing the first for the trees” than forcing your carnivore pet to be vegetarian. Get a guinea pig or something
Feral cats rarely live more than five years in the wild. House cats routinely live into their teenage years. Some live north of twenty.
But it’s very hard to explain this to a kitten and have it make an informed choice.