Hi,
jlai.lu is the french instance of Lemmy, some user posted this thread 16 days ago : https://jlai.lu/post/11504685, and a flamewar ensued between hexbear and the french, e.g. between happybadger and their administrator here.
Since they didn’t really have any reason to defederate initially, they’re now adamant that they should defederate only because of this discussion, since it proved that every Hexbear&Lemmygrad user is agressive(, as if jlai.lu users weren’t agressive in this discussion as well).
I still find hard to believe that they could defederate on such weak basis, and it does feel like a convenient excuse, but that’s what they’re saying, ask them for confirmation if you don’t believe it either.
They also used a list of post found on /c/[email protected] as if it was representative, but it hardly counts as an argument, what a stupid situation…
They’ve now pinned this post for 12 days, and the defederation with both Hexbear and Lemmygrad seems unavoidable.
I’ve known this for more than a week but didn’t care that much, yet when talking with them, and especially @Camus here, they/he said that they/he would like to talk to you. @Camus is very patient/nice, and you can look at his number of comments/posts to gauge his influence, probably their most active user(, kind of a french ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆).
Well, to be more precise, he informally asked for some excuses from Hexbear, but my post here didn’t reach them, perhaps because of “r*tard” in my username(, r*tardataire designate someone who’s late in french).
However, more than excuses in the name of others, you only have to show him that we’re not aggressive(, if you have some time, it won’t change much in the end), something very easy/natural to prove for >90% of Hexbear users(, and perhaps >70-80% of Lemmygrad 🙂, it does feel a bit more bitter/serious here, not a criticism).
They have some communities that aren’t that far apart from what could be found on Lemmygrad or Hexbear b.t.w., so it can’t really be said that they’d reject us solely based on terrorism apologia, supporting Stalin, etc.(, even if their “leftist” admin is against socialist countries because our capitalists said that they’re authoritarian).
Staying federated with a french instance would be useless for 99% of Hexbear and Lemmygrad, so if you intervene it’d mostly be on the behalf of current/future french users(, it can be nice sometimes to speak your native language without using an alt account), and perhaps also for Lemmygrad and Hexbear’s reputation on jlai.lu.
If you’re french, and/or simply nice, and want a chat with them, feel free to do so directly under the post or with @Camus.
(Kinda worth mentionning in passing that, currently, their top two posts of all time sorted by the most comments are the ones cited above about this defederation)
Also, keep in mind that this defederation is unavoidable though, if it doesn’t happen now it’ll be next year or the year after. As you know, reddit banned ChapoTrapHouse, GenZedong, etc., and we were quickly banned from lemmy.world and others, so we’ll one day be banned from other “centrist” instances such as the french one. Just like we’d also be banned/censored by our governement if our numbers grow enough to disturb/‘be a threat’.
Furthermore, Hexbear took action, and decided to defederate first without even trying to discuss more calmly. So don’t waste too much of your time either(, but please don’t go there unless you intent to speak calmly).
Thanks for reading :) !
I find domenico losurdo “class struggle” very relevant book explaining the behaviour of western leftists.
Chapter 4, section 2 titled “imperial socialism” explains how western leftists turn a blind eye and delegitimize oppressed nations liberation struggles because they directly benefit from it, these “socialists” would gladly provide loyalty to their regimes in exchange of concessions. Disraeli and Proudhon being prime examples of it.
For those interested : https://leftychan.net/leftypol/src/1622232510872-4.pdf
2 - ‘IMPERIAL SOCIALISM ’
Mutilation of class struggle can take another form : closing one’s eyes to the fate visited by capitalism on colonial peoples or peoples of colonial origin.
From the outset, calling attention to the ‘millions of workers’ forced to die in India, to allow capitalists to make modest concessions to British workers, Marx underlined the connection between the colonial question and the social question in the capitalist metropolis (see Chap. 2, Sect. 3). This was a demanding intellectual perspective.
In sharp contrast to Proudhon, Fourier was a champion of the cause of women’s emancipation. But it happened that, in the very years when Marx and Engels were expressing their hopes in the proletariat as the agency of universal emancipation with youthful hyperbole, followers of Fourier (and Saint-Simon) planned to construct communities of a more or less socialist kind in Algeria, on land taken from the Arabs in a brutal, sometimes genocidal war. 11
Later, utopian socialism mostly viewed the abolitionist movement with condescension or suspicion. After the February 1848 revolution, Victor Schoelcher and the new government proceeded to the definitive abolition of black slavery in French colonies, almost half a century after it had been reintroduced by Napoleon, who had thereby cancelled the results of the black revolution on Santo Domingo led by Toussaint L’Ouverture and the laws emancipating blacks enacted by the Jacobin Convention.
However, Etienne Cabet, an eminent representative of French utopian socialism, criticized Schoelcher for focusing on a narrow objective—the emancipation of black slaves—rather than committing himself to the universal emancipation of labour. 12
On the outbreak of the Civil War in the USA, Lassalle argued similarly, judging at least from a letter to Engels of 30 July 1862 in which Marx criticized the ‘antiquated, mouldering speculative rubbish’ of Lassalle, for whom the gigantic clash underway in the USA was ‘of no interest whatever’. Rather than developing positive ‘ideas’ for transforming society, ‘the Yankees’ confined themselves to mobilizing a ‘negative idea’ like ‘the freedom of the individual’. 13
For the two representatives of socialism cited here, commitment to the abolition of slavery in the colonies or the North American republic distracted attention from the social question, which remained a burning issue in the capitalist metropolis.
To the American Civil War—in Marx’s view, an epic event—Lassalle made only distracted, reductive references. Because of the blockade imposed by the Union on the secessionist South, and the consequent shortage of cotton for the textile industry of Britain, and Lancashire in particular, British workers were forced into unemployment and risked having to ‘emigrate to the colonies’. It was ‘one of the most bloody and horrible wars that history has ever seen’.
What was at stake in it was not touched upon. In fact, rather than the institution of slavery, Lassalle indicted ‘federalism’ and the self-government accorded states as allegedly responsible for the ‘absorption in particular interests’ and ‘mutual hatred’ of the contending parties, which were thus put on par. 14
The economistic or corporatist limitations of representatives of the labour and socialist movement were not unconnected with the initiative of the dominant classes, whose effectiveness was in fact underestimated by Marx and Engels. Having included ‘Young England’ in the ‘spectacle’ of ‘feudal socialism’ staged by ‘aristocrats’, the Communist Manifesto concluded: ‘the people, so often as it joined them, saw on their hindquarters the old feudal coats of arms, and deserted with loud and irreverent laughter’. 15
In fact, things turned out rather differently. The historically most important member of Young England was Disraeli. In him (as in the organization he joined) are to be found elements of the transfiguration of the ancien régime, but he may be regarded as the inventor of a ‘socialism’ more appropriately defined as ‘imperial’ than ‘feudal’. Far from meeting with derision from the popular classes, this was socialism that often enchanted and ensnared them.
In the same years as The Holy Family and The German Ideology proclaimed the irreducible antagonism between proletariat and bourgeoisie, Disraeli published a novel that in its own way dealt with the same themes. We find a Chartist agitator bitterly challenging the existing order and denouncing the reality of the ‘two nations’ (‘rich and poor’) into which England is divided. In the Communist Manifesto, the Chartists are included among the ‘existing working-class parties’; 16 and the agitator seems to exhibit the revolutionary consciousness attributed to the proletariat by Marx and Engels. It is interesting to observe Disraeli’s response: it made no sense to speak of ‘two nations’; a bond of ‘fraternity’ now united ‘the privileged and prosperous English people’. 17
The key word is the one emphasized by me : the English aristocracy had shelved the caste, even racial arrogance it traditionally displayed towards the popular classes ; and now it was the ‘fraternal’ national English community as a whole that adopted a pose of supreme aristocratic disdain for other nations, especially colonial populations.
In other words, rather than disappearing, the racialization traditionally suffered by the British popular classes was displaced. It is no accident if Disraeli, who subsequently became the author of the Second Reform Act (which extended political rights beyond the circle of the aristocracy and the bourgeoisie), and of a series of social reforms, was simultaneously the champion of imperialism and the right of the ‘superior’ races to subjugate ‘inferior’ ones. In this way, the British statesman proposed to defuse the social question and class struggle in his own country : ‘I say with confidence that the great body of the working-class of England […] are English to the core. They are for maintaining the greatness of the Kingdom and the Empire, and they are proud of being subjects of our Sovereign and members of such an Empire.’ 18
These were the years when in France Proudhon adopted the position (according to Marx) of a ‘socialist of the Imperial period’—to be precise, the Second Empire. 19
Thus, we see a new political movement emerge. In the late nineteenth century, alluding to Napoleon III and Bismarck as well as Disraeli, a German observer spoke of an ‘imperialist social policy’ or ‘imperial socialism’ (Imperialsozialismus ). 20
Already brought out by Marx, the connection between the colonial question and the social question in the capitalist metropolis was recognized and put at the centre of a new political project, which proposed a kind of quid pro quo: the popular masses and proletariat were invited to respond to the dominant classes’ limited social reforms with patriotism and support for colonial expansionism.Yes! The western labour aristocracy benefits way too much from imperialism to oppose it.
BTW Rockhill just edited a 2018 Losurdo book specifically about western marxism! He talks about it here, it’s super interesting and perfectly describes what we have seen from jlai.lu. (he shits on Zizek during the interview for extra cookie points)
The PDF version of the book is on ProleWiki already.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
If anyone here wants to know more about the beliefs of anansi and the reasons for why a leftist like him(, very common in France,) is convinced that Hexbear and Lemmygrad are simply contrarians with no backbone to stand firm on our beliefs even when it’s “our” side that commits atrocities, he talked about it at different places, including under this post, but that comment would be a recommended starting point if you want to “convert”/debate/convince him(, which can obviously only be done with enough patience on both sides).
We have nothing to be scared or ashamed of because we both (think that we )believe in the truth(, seek the Truth), and we’re the first ones to criticize the typical western double standards that can be seen everywhere. Like everyone here i’m not afraid of being wrong somewhere nor about exchanging about my/our beliefs.
(We’ve already spoke about it in french so i don’t think i’ll add my own comment, but )There’s a good reply from Cowbee below(, a tiny bit agressive but it could be worse, and more importantly he has good arguments).
(here)Keep in mind that anansi said here and there that he doesn’t want to defederate on these grounds, and don’t personally want to defederate, but was asked to do a survey by some jlailu users(, following this heated post that according to them wasn’t initially going to lead to anything in the first place).
Anansi is lucky he’s behind a computer screen and I think he uses that. Even on hexbear someone else wanted to beat him up. I know his “anarchist” type, I’ve met them. It’s very French. They keep poking and prodding to get a rise out of you and for no other reason. No honesty, no sincerity. Then when you finally react they’re like “oh I was just joking, why are you taking it so seriously!”
The Fr*nch left is Charlie Hebdo
Internet is the occasion to meet other nationalities, so i was wondering : do you have an opinion(, and/or could you tell me the general algerian opinion,) about the western Sahara ? Should it be independent, moroccan, algerian, divided, … ?
Also, it’s not important but it reminds me of seeing a channel a few years ago that offered a bounty for archeological findings proving that the western Sahara was the ancient location of Atlantis, e.g. with this, it’s almost certainly false but kind of the only thing i know about this topic 🤷The Fr*nch left is Charlie Hebdo
And yeah, the so-called “freedom of expression”*
*As long as we agree with you. Terrorism apologia or what we deem “hate speech” or “disinformation” is a threat to our “values”.Internet is the occasion to meet other nationalities, so i was wondering : do you have an opinion(, and/or could you tell me the general algerian opinion,) about the western Sahara ? Should it be independent, moroccan, algerian, divided, … ?
Leftists and Algerian-revolution aligned people want the SADR to be independent, liberals and right wingers see it as a waste of money, no one seriously wants it to be ruled by Algeria.
Also, it’s not important but it reminds me of seeing a channel a few years ago that offered a bounty for archeological findings proving that the western Sahara was the ancient emplacement of Atlantis, e.g. with this, it’s almost certainly false but kind of the only thing i know about this topic 🤷
My favorite shitpost
Indeed, the algerian position is more about supporting their independence, there’re no claims, thanks 👍
a part of our press probably exaggerated the algerian claims then
Wait? they’re saying we want the land??? It’s desert???
That’s what i thought, but after rapidly checking i edited my comment because i realized that i’ve been abused by some clickbait titles about some kind of “war” between Morocco and Algeria over the Sahara(, and that our president recently took the side of Morocco).
When i’m looking a bit more into this, they’re not lying to this point, but they’re not saying that the algerian position is based on its own decolonial tradition, every article i found(, out of the 5-6 i’ve skimmed through, 2015 in a specialized magazine, up to 2024 in a more general one,) say that it’s primarily done to annoy Morocco, and more power/influence over the region. Not in favor of the Sahrawis whose point of view isn’t really told.
So, i guess that if i had to find the bias in our propaganda, it’d be that usually we’d be in favor of the independence of the Sahrawi republic, but we’re curiously not taking their sides(, just like for south-eastern ukrainians or others). So our bias is that we’re progressively aligned with the position of Morocco, and the u.s.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
It’s very French.
It makes me think of this video from Blast : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AASPDZd-DKc (5k likes for 145k views)
First you watch the video(, in x2,) hoping from something, then you’re disappointed, and then you read the comments and you’re pleasantly surprised(, at least in my case :))It’s so confusing that they named their alliance AES
Lol just from reading the video title and then first comment I can tell what they’re gonna talk about
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I have to admit, I feel disappointed whenever this community attracts negative publicity and it has nothing to do with me, even if it is only somebody taking something that I said so blatantly out of context. For instance, I eventually retitled this thread because ‘economic boost’ sounded less incriminating than ‘boost to capitalism’ and after I published this reply, I realized that it sounded kind of mean, yet I was surprised that I was unable to find anybody talking about it.
tous les régimes ML et associés terminent de la même façon, défendus par des tankies prêts à excuser des génocides tout en écrasant n’importe quel mouvement demandant de l’indépendance et de l’autodétermination, quitte à s’associer avec des fascistes qui ont, in fine, le même but politique qu’eux.
This is basically just a minor variation on the trope that we merely hunger for power (rather than wanting the power to end hunger). I’ve been around the block enough times to know that there is no evidence that I could possibly provide that this anti-Bolshevik would not dismiss out of hand, though sometimes I do wonder… would a generic anticommunist ever have the patience and interest in at least reading one of my many threads on fascism? Since I recognize fascism as a manifestation of capitalism and anticommunism, I suspect that the answer is ‘no’.
It’s wild how much flak lemmygrad gets considering most threads here get single-digit likes and comments. Even if we stayed federated, they probably wouldn’t see posts from us unless they subscribed to genzedong or freechat. It makes me feel honored that we’re considered as much of a threat as hexbear hahaha
In accedemic lituriture We are seen as far more of a threat and target and hex is mostly ignored
Do you remember where you read that? Sounds interesting
https://lemmygrad.ml/c/useful_science
They are all here we must keep track of there usefull science
Right, there was that one dweeby guy who wrote an actual paper about us. Wasn’t that before hexbear started federating? I wonder how he heard of one without the other.
I know atleast 2 of them where after federation. I cannot remember the first of his
I’m seeing quite a few misconceptions here and just like to clarify things a bit.
Jlai.lu is a French speaking instance with a majority of French users but also some Belgian, Canadian and Swiss users. The Luxembourg extension is pretty much the same as Redd.it being Italian, with the exact same pun used.
The instance is (European scale) left leaning, with a few leftists being very active (anarchists, communists, socialists…) and a majority of libs, most being libs, some left-leaning libs, a few econolibs. Fascists are immediately kicked out when identified, right-wingers usually end downvoted when explaining their views but are allowed. For context fascists are currently 1/3 to 1/2 of voters in France, depending on the cutoff you use, the whole right pushing to fascism for fear of socdem trying to be social.
An ass launched the idea of defederating hexbear for personal reasons, which turned into a few hexbear users becoming a nuisance on the thread.
The instance admin opened the idea of defederating here and hexbear as a discussion. I don’t know why lemmygrad was mentioned at all. Hexbear defederated from their side.
Votes were cast on people reacting to the ass-thread more than real checking as there are very few interaction between the instances.
Jlailu admin stated that they were thinking about the issue and saw the vote as food for thought but not as a direct decision maker to defederate. Admin is against defederation. At no point is it deemed unavoidable. A few users have tried to point to “problematic” content, usually ending on whatever (didn’t spend the energy cross checking, every instance has shitposts for who digs, admins having a life offline).
Not much to add except that translations are bound to hurt. In France :
Communism is seen as either a slur from people not knowing what it is or as an achieved form, but still usually including some actors of transition (Lenin, Sankara) but excluding others (Stalin, Xi). Don’t ask why, that’s not the point, it’s just that’s how french language evolved and the context needed if you start to dig.
Also, the French socialist party has become right-wing soc-dem (left wing socdem being LFI). The french communist party is… Something, not sure it’s leftist (closest to communist/Marxist/socialist parties would be NPA or luttes ouvrières). So the words really need context.
I’ve nothing to add, but just a quick note because i may have been mistaken, here’s the reasoning :
At no point is it deemed unavoidable.
~Every instance is defederated from hexbear and lemmygrad(, even lemmy.world and the german instance), that’s why i said that.
Furthermore, the only reversal possible would be a veto from the admins(, didn’t thought about that), because your votes(, which i can’t see,) are certainly overwhelmingly in favor of the defederation in regard to your comments under the thread, and ‘already cast’/‘won’t change’. Since it has been more than 10 days, it felt useless to hope changing the mind of everyone else.
Honestly, i also think that if the defederation was somehow avoided now it’d still happen next year or the year after, but what do i know obvNo need to answer, i just felt like adding this precision(, and i haven’t been much on jlai.lu but i remember your username), thanks for taking the time to clarify :) !
and a majority of libs, most being libs, some left-leaning libs, a few econolibs. Fascists are immediately kicked out when identified,
jlai.lu is the french instance of Lemmy
defedrate
So you have a personal problem with instances not being gated communities as well as a xenophobic issue ?
that’s the most right wing argument I saw lmao, my hatred towards the fr*nch liberals isn’t xenophobic, y’all racialist punks deserve it, last thing I want is a community of racist chauvinists who’ll justify colonialism and genocide.
Wanting to defederate because of a nationality.
Calling an entire people racialist punks.
Being called out out and defending as “that’s a right wing argument”
Calling a community which is against imperialism, nationalism, and racism : “racist chauvinists who’ll justify colonialism and genocide”
Are you sure you’re all right? I understood this to be a leftist space, are you even in the right community ?
Cool, now notice the algerian flag next to her username.
You’re the first to say that « fascists are currently 1/3 to 1/2 of voters in France », but “racialist punks” is too much ?
France is opposing every country that we’re supporting on Lemmygrad and Hexbear, and your community is not anti-France, so you’re not against imperialism and most of you clearly aren’t against nationalism.
If you’re saying that you’re not what she denounces, then aren’t we on the same side ? Kinda hard to prove it for the community, but it’s possible to do it for you, and if you really have the same values then there’s no need to fight then.
Aren’t you ashamed of the françafrique, of our many wars, of our neocolonialism, of our decolonial wars, of our centuries of genocide, of the lamentable state of our propaganda, etc. ?
She’s not “racist”, since she doesn’t hate me for being french(, even if it’s not a quality), but she hates the ideology of our country, as i do, and even more we hate the actions of our government, as you’ll claim to do as well. And it’s not because we hate France but because we love humanity/‘other countries’. Try to argue on this basis in our medias it’ll be impossible.On my app, I don’t see the flag. But i don’t give a shit about flags in the first place. Mixing in an agressive manner people, countries and Lemmy communities is plain stupid. And flag wavers deserve the cold shoulder in my book, whatever flags they wave.
As for the rest of your diatribe, I don’t know of a single country that can be proud of its past. Countries are shit. And mixing nations / people / countries is a shit xenophobic attitude.
She’s not “racist”, since she doesn’t hate me for being french
Yeah cool. Someone states a French speaking community should be defederated on the basis of being French, starts insulting the people but they’re not xenophobic, they have a French friend. That line of argumentation is the worst you could do.
You don’t get to decide if other people attach importance to flags. That’s very authoritarian of you.
You offer no apology for the misunderstanding or compassion, instead deciding to dig your hole further thinking that because you reject flags that must make you untouchable. It would be a masterful reversal if you were in any other community, unfortunately, we know what we’re talking about here. You try to reflect the accusation onto the Algerian user saying that you think they’re wrong for attaching importance to the massacres your country committed against her people, thereby absolving your own selfish self of any wrongdoing and allowing you to further browbeat her.
Someone states a French speaking community should be defederated on the basis of being French
You poor thing! That’s such a terrible thing compared to the dozens of Algerians who were drowned in the Seine in 1960 😥
Correction : Someone states a French speaking community should be defederated on the basis of being pro-French
If you really hate the current actions of France then we have the same “values”/beliefs/ideology
An example : Most people here would have probably appreciated some of the warnings emitted from our president towards Israel(, even if, let’s be honest we’re still far from it), that’s only an example, they’re against our actions and what we’re ending up representing.
“It’s a rare french win” isn’t heard very often around here.
You’re forgetting the ‘liberal’ of ‘fr*nch liberals’.
Liberal was added afterwards.
The comment has not been edited.
boho fucking crying ass cracker frenchie punk
No, you’re it! 🤣
the other user of you here called us monkeys who shit in their hands, and called us children, I don’t need to spell anything out crakkker
- Be disingenuous, obnoxious, hostile, insulting, call people fascists and genocide deniers, etc.
- Get told to fuck off
- Piss and moan about how “fuck off” is some egregious breach of internet etiquette while all the other behavior is not
Tale as old as time
Edit: the mod whining about how “fuck off” is over the line says we should be killed. Good riddance.
as if jlai.lu users weren’t agressive in this discussion as well
I just posted a story on a lefty imageboard about some guy swiping my friend on the sidewalk and when my very weakly tapped him back in the face he made a scene like he was assaulted. Liberals are dangerous hyper-individualistic villains. I actually consider them a direct enemy of today’s left, and not some neutral third party. These french users sound the same.
Agreed, liberals always are a direct enemy of the left- and not merely a “lesser evil” to fascists, but equal and with no meaningful difference from fascists (which just happen to be their mask-off honest selves).
Many people here (if not most) used to be liberals. I’m not aware of anyone here who started off as a fascist and eventually became a socialist.
Libs can also occasionally be browbeaten into passing some decent laws. They sometimes try to strike a balance between the working class and capitalists (e.g., the minimum wage and other labor protections), and they sometimes oppose various forms of bigotry. There is no strain of fascism that doesn’t place bigotry front and center, and any concessions to workers are explicitly for white workers only, and come at the price of destroying even white labor’s organized power to demand more.
I actually consider them a direct enemy of today’s left
Yeah, they’re not really hiding it anyway. What’s even weirder is that it doesn’t stop at pro-capitalist liberals attacking anti-capitalist socialists(, instead of living together, as if ideologies had to fight until only one remains), but that even so-called socialists attack other socialists(, based on lies about freedom or w/e).
Oh well, don’t see what i could do…A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.
Il y a quand même un comble quand on vient défédérer une instance “autoritaire” et se dire non-autoritaire. C’est pas autoritaire de forcer la déféd ? Ce n’est pas intolérant d’empêcher les gens de parler entre eux ?
Comme quoi le gauchisme transcende les pays et les moeurs pour s’installer dans toutes les voies, le chien galeux qui marche aux côtés de Lénine à ses dépends, comme dans le poème.
Je tiens quand même à rappeler que la politique de sinicisation au Xinjiang est reconnue par le gouvernement Chinois, que ce soit culturellement ou via l’import de colons Hans.
Ah bon depuis quand ?
Pendant ce temps nous on continue de fédérer avec toutes les “vraies” instances lemmy, c’est elles qui défédèrent.
Il y a quand même un comble quand on vient défédérer une instance “autoritaire” et se dire non-autoritaire. C’est pas autoritaire de forcer la déféd ? Ce n’est pas intolérant d’empêcher les gens de parler entre eux ?
Fun fact, c’est hexbear qui défédère, pendant que nous on a juste une consultation pour le moment, hein. Consultation qui implique les membres de l’instance, donc par définition c’est pas autoritaire non plus.
Fais un minimum d’effort d’honnêteté intellectuelle stp.
Comme quoi le gauchisme transcende les pays et les moeurs pour s’installer dans toutes les voies, le chien galeux qui marche aux côtés de Lénine à ses dépends, comme dans le poème.
sa fé réfléchir
Ah bon depuis quand ?
Jsp, je vais pas faire un cours d’histoire mais si on cible que la Chine contemporaine, je dirais depuis Ma Fuxiang, mais ça s’inscrit dans la politique impériale de la dynastie Qing, où l’envoi de colons Han dans des territoires d’importance stratégique était la norme.
Politique toujours en cours dans plus ou moins tous les territoires chinois, notamment au Xinjiang et depuis un peu plus récemment, Hong-Kong. Pour Xinjiang t’as eu plusieurs versions de réglementations locales dans les années 80 et 90, et la dernière mouture, centrale, elle, est connue chez nous comme la “Stike Hard Against Violent Terrorism” de 2014, qui continue la même chose en un peu plus rapide, mais a “juste” ajouté les fameux camps.
C’est tellement vieux et assumé que google sinisation ou sinicization te donnera plus ou moins toutes les pistes pour te renseigner si t’en as vraiment quelque chose à faire. C’est une conséquence direct du fonctionnement clanique et dynastique de la Chine impériale depuis des millénaires.
Pendant ce temps nous on continue de fédérer avec toutes les “vraies” instances lemmy, c’est elles qui défédèrent.
Je comprend pas, personne veut parler avec moi alors que moi j’ai pas de problème pour parler avec eux. Ça doit être le monde entier le problème.
Fun fact, c’est hexbear qui défédère … Fais un minimum d’effort d’honnêteté intellectuelle
Hexbear still federates with you as everyone can see at https://hexbear.net/instances, and you still federate with Hexbear as everyone can see at https://jlai.lu/instances. We’d appreciate it if you represent the facts accurately before accusing us of intellectual dishonesty. (As an aside, if I have somehow erred in checking this, please feel free to correct me.)
Je comprend pas, personne veut parler avec moi alors que moi j’ai pas de problème pour parler avec eux. Ça doit être le monde entier le problème.
Did we ever say it’s the whole world? There are still mainstream instances that continue to federate with us.
If some of the instances believe that our explicit Marxist viewpoint is too extreme for them (and this has not come without dissent from their userbase, such as with lemmy.world defederation), then it actually is their problem.
Hexbear still federates with you as everyone can see at https://hexbear.net/instances, and you still federate with Hexbear as everyone can see at https://jlai.lu/instances.
Hexbear did defederate by removing us from the allowed instances, which break federation of at least the comments.
You can see the difference in content from https://jlai.lu/post/12056905?scrollToComments=true and https://hexbear.net/post/3822135
No jlai.lu user can comment on hexbear since they soft defederated and I guess the opposite is true.
We’d appreciate it if you represent the facts accurately before accusing us of intellectual dishonesty.
I mean, see what I’m talking about when I’m speaking about projection?
If some of the instances believe that our explicit Marxist viewpoint is too extreme for them
Please stop using this word when not an ounce of materialist analysis is present in your political reflection.
Hexbear did defederate by removing us from the allowed instances
My apologies, thank you for the correction. I confused the linked and allowed instances lists. (It’s worth noting that Lemmygrad only has a linked list and not an explicit allow list.) You’re still on their linked list.
I will leave my comment above as it was when you responded so that others may see the error.
m’en bats les couilles frère
Bah fallait pas poser de questions alors frérot si tu voulais pas de réponse.
J’sais bien que tu t’en bas les couilles en vrai et que ton gauchisme est performatif mais que t’es grosso modo un mec un contrarien edgy qui est né trop tard pour être un nazi sur 4chan.
Mais de quoi tu parles bouffon 😂 ou est ce que je t’ai posé une question ou donné l’impression que j’avais envie taper la discut avec toi ? Tu fais ça dans la rue aussi, venir gueuler sur des gens qui parlent entre eux et les insulter de nulle part ? Tu es pathétique. Aucune plus-value.
Well I would prefer if they did not defederate with us but if they are taking tips from a full-time anti-tankie from one of the more racist instances on Lemmy at large I don’t know what one could say to sway them. Look at their list of posts. This post is linked as “Tankies celebrate r*pe”. The mass r*pe story published by NYT was constructed entirely from second and third hand unverified accounts. Regardless of this no one in the screenshot is celebrating r*pe. Stuff like this should not be credible evidence for an anti-zionist and anyone who suggests this nonsense as grounds for defederation should not be taken seriously.
They’re building their own cage with this, but I have no interest of playing architect. Not my problem not my solution.
Yea(, my “debunk” was « No comment does that, and I could show you more than one piece of evidence proving that we were at least partially lied to about this(, do you remember that testimony about them tossing around a severed breast in the air like a football ? Or the period when the accusation was made, even though it’s confirmed they only stayed for about ~4 minutes ? And all the other numerous lies about this attack, like the infamous mention of babies in the oven) »), but nobody interacted with my debunks of this list, including their admin 🤷, who preferred to answer me on other grounds, so i don’t think that it matters that much to them(, even if it’s still a (pseudo-)“argument” on their part).
I don’t know what one could say to sway them.
Only waste your time there if you don’t have more important things to do, i don’t think it’d change anything about their defederation in the long term, and don’t really know what you could say, perhaps “hi, i’m an admin of Lemmygrad, do you want to discuss ?”, but i don’t see what would be the point, you can hardly convince them that we’re not agressive and shouldn’t be defederated on this basis.
It’s stupid anyway, still worth to make a post, but stupid.
I mean I am not sure how this has to do with Lemmygrad, A butt hurt lib was mad that hexbear is very active and that how they have it set up they can see other fediverse posts. They are also mad that hexbear is leftist and has issues with their posting culture, posts something nothing happens, a year later same thing and there is a fall out, hexbear decides to defederate beforehand, and that situation is over.
Then we have the ever looming fact Lemmygrad is likely next, but lets be totaly honest here, Lemmygrad is always on the chopping block, because we are not liberals so we are either going aganst the interests of the bigger platforms or we are counter to what they have been told is acceptable, and so will kneejerk ban. Its annoying yes but not much we can do for it.
I get it sucks that they are walling us off from there users, however we cannot do much, best you can do is make an alt that just sits there. Honestly the most concerning thing I keep seeing is the Constant push to change platforms from the Lemmy platform to something else because the lead devs are communist, I basicly never see this done for any other political alignment in open source, however there is a bigger and bigger push for it here.
also why is the french instance a luxemburg domain?
I did not know about the phrase… They are literaly making a french reddit
also I still dont love the use of the belgan domane for youtube
I did not know about the phrase… They are literaly making a french reddit
More like an alternative, since it was born from the reddit “boycott” period.
The name come from a “rancisation” of the name reddit, since initially the biggest community was “rance”, that likes to translate english terms literally for fun.
I did not know about the phrase…
It’s alright, it’s normal for someone who doesn’t speak french to not know it, furthermore if it’s the shortened form.
They are literaly making a french reddit
They actually are. Jlailu was the meme name that the french subreddit /r/rance gave to reddit (because reddit = read it = j’l’ai lu). They just copied that meme name and turned it into an actual reddit clone.
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I get it sucks that they are walling us off from there users, however we cannot do much
Does it suck? Personally it sucks more to breathe the same air or exist in the same spaces as these libs. Let them wall themselves off, eventually they will be walled off from the vast majority of humanity that is looking on in disgust at them- and then hopefully in time that wall will close in, and those who cannot develop the human decency to leave their wretched spaces will go straight to the dustbin of history.
Look we cannot get to the point where libs are a thing of the past and disliked if we do not put the groundwork in to educate and convence people now, we have to put that effort in, and I get it it is not always fun, nor is it easy, it is both easier and more fun to ignore them or yell at them but that does nothing for movement building. By walling them off, not only does it make our interactions with them harder and more limited, it also will prevent the curious, the ones who are thinking about it from coming over here and checking it out.
It is very neglegent to cut someone off from learning or even interaction because they are currently a liberal, because they are the ones we need to bring over to this side. they are the ones we need to teach, and you cannot teach when you only hold contempt and no sympethy. That attitude is only going to keep us from ever liberating the working class
I mean I am not sure how this has to do with Lemmygrad,
Some users in the “flamewar” were from Lemmygrad as well, so their pinned post is to defederate from both Lemmygrad and Hexbear at the same time. I know that it’s stupid and look like a convenient excuse.
it sucks that they are walling us off from there users, however we cannot do much, best you can do is make an alt that just sits there.
Apparently, after what happened it was up to us to send some kind of “delegation” in order to calm things down if we didn’t want them to defederate. It can still be calmed down(, for a while), and i kinda hoped that some people here wouldn’t agree with my pessimism, and talk with them instead. Their post is still pinned after a dozen days and they haven’t seen anyone so you or someone else would probably be welcomed, by asking “Why do you want to defederate ?” for example. They’ll answer that it’s because we’re aggressive and authoritarian but there’s probably room to discuss about it.
It’s worth adding that i don’t personally care that much either, even if a defederation/rejection is always annoying, if only because our posts won’t be displayed to them. An instance based on nationality and not ideology should try to stay neutral/welcoming, i think.Honestly the most concerning thing I keep seeing is the Constant push to change platforms from the Lemmy platform to something else because the lead devs are communist, I basicly never see this done for any other political alignment in open source, however there is a bigger and bigger push for it here.
It’s only a partial answer, but i’ve began an app for Lemmy a few weeks before Sync went out(, should be out next year, if anyone want to throw ideas b.t.w. i’m taking), and i can already easily circumvent the defederation on it by fusing the “output” of two accounts. So other apps may easily copy it, and defederation wouldn’t be a problem for those who want to go through the creation of another account in order to bypass it, as long as jlai.lu users have heard of Hexbear and Lemmygrad they’ll only have to add an alt to their main account in order to change their feed, without the need to switch between alts, even if that’ll only be a partial solution since it doesn’t affect the experience “by default”. I can also already create a group of tabs that’ll display the feed of an instance or a group of communities(, and even the posts//comments of a (group of )user.s you want to follow), so that’ll solve another annoying problem of isolation that prevent us from easily reading/‘being exposed to’ the feed of another instance.
There’s also the possibility of changing the Lemmy software to enable a defederation à la carte, with the option for each user to opt in//out of the defederation, that’d be even better(, there’d still be the need to attribute a default value though).
However, i’ve also seen this push so yeah, ‘you’re right’/‘i agree’ obviously.Interesting that we where suposed to “send a delegation” normaly that requires notice, and I do not remember any notice being given, aswell as you could just talk to the admins. This feels super self important, when from what I saw it was a few people saying mostly incorrect things… someone from hex pointing out that the ring leader was a nazi sympithiser, and then a few going over to defend themselves.
I am sure if you asked jlailu they would say they are being nutral, we are outside of the status quo and farther from it than nazis, so as they keep putting it they see us as “Dangerous extremests” I do not think we are but that is the preseption that is going to get sturred up, agian communism is either aganst there intrests or the intrests EVERYONE is telling them they totaly have, so agian we are scary.
Lemmy already allows user choice to defederate or not, and it does not need to be instance wide, that is not good enough because some of our ideas can get to some people, it needs to be everyone who cannot see it
I entirely agree with everything you just wrote, and he justified why he said the o.p. was a fascist, it was a critic mostly based on his anti-communist methods. While searching for his comment i found another explanation here :
They’re playing the victims as @poo_22 said, and like you i find hard to believe that anyone can defederate on such idiotic basis, i’ve not much to add.Feels like snitching, but here’s a partial list of the problematic comments : https://jlai.lu/comment/10687299. The flames were clearly fueled by them as well though, everyone can confirm it by reading the comments, and i still find hard to agree that these comments should be the object of debate, but i should have mentioned it in the selftext anyway.
Lemmy already allows user choice to defederate or not
Yeah they can block a.n instance(/community/user/…), absolutely, but a.f.a.i.k. they can’t counter the defederation chosen by their instance though(, except by creating an alt)
jlai.lu is the french instance of Lemmy
defedrate
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Their admin is anti-“authoritarian”, e.g. by stating that « Marxist-leninists sullied the name of communism with their authoritarian definition », but as linked in the selftext you can find an apology of Gadhafi with nice comments on one of their most leftist community, so i’m not sure 🤷
And compared to the french subreddit they’re much more on the left, i haven’t seen any far-right user.Their “most leftist” community is also deeply anti-communist, suffice to look at the side bar which has a label “We are not” followed by a photo of Russian workers organized with the local communist party, peacefully protesting against the result of parlementary elections rigged by Putin.
I’ve also seen a moderator of that community, who is also an admin of the instance, promote the horseshoe theory.
They are classic western leftists, anti-communist, anti-revolutionary, pro western imperialism/colonialism. The very same european marxists that were in support of the first world war, and today support the delivery of weapons to Ukraine instead of negitating for peace. I feel ashamed that it is the de-facto official french instance on lemmy, and I avoid it entirely now because the things I’ve read over there made me sick.
Edit: Example of a jlai.lu admin (who likes to call himself a leftist) who equates communists to fascists, and even calls for their elimination by drowning them in a well.
Their “most leftist” community is also deeply anti-communist, suffice to look at the side bar which has a label “We are not” followed by a photo of Russian workers organized with the local communist party
That’s an excellent point, i completely forgot about the sidebar(, which i’ve seen in the past).
There’s probably more than one thing to say about the anti-communist “libertarian” left, that opposes socialism(, not even in their countries !).
The thing is that they’re opposing socialist countries in the name of the exact same socialism, on the ground of humanism, because they’re blindingly ‘exposed to’/believing only one side of the propaganda, and on many topics(, e.g., even with the (relative )decrease of popularity of Israel, it’d still be unimaginable in France to interview a Hamas member and let them expose their own propaganda).
The uyghur genocide is another example of what their admin, and users, believes in. Two/Three people, and myself on another occasion, tried their arguments on him&them. A.f.a.i.k. it didn’t lead anywhere.
(I’m not saying that to you in particular, but )It wouldn’t be a reason for not speaking with them obviously, it’s just a disagreement, it’s mostly safe to say that every single one of us were like them at a time.peacefully protesting against the result of parlementary elections rigged by Putin.
I’ve tried an argument that didn’t work back there, it was to prove that our anti-russian propaganda lied when they said that V.Putin rigged the elections, because the undeniable fact is that western surveys still continue to agree with the russian surveys about V.Putin. First link :
They could have lied. We know that surveys tell the opposite story in Venezuela(, you can switch between election on the upper-right hand corner to quickly confirm that, interestingly enough, this discrepancy between surveys decreases over the year, and now isn’t there in 2024 compared to 2012, the propaganda/control/manipulation is intensifying).
As of now, i’m confident that you won’t easily find an approval rating that does not confirm Vladimir Putin’s popularity. But since they managed to spread the doubt in Venezuela and other countries, despite the fact that anyone can do a polling, it’s possible that it changes for the next russian president.Usually, they will end up admitting that russians, or chinese, or other populations, do love their government despite the sanctions&pressure, they don’t have much choice if every survey is unanimous, so they’ll end up saying that it’s only because of propaganda.
That the existence of these surveys end up surprising them is a proof of the presence of our own propaganda. There’s no need to tell/‘prove to’ anyone here that we’ll exaggerate(, or even create,) the flaws of countries we don’t like, and ignore(, or diminish if we can’t,) their qualities/success ; while doing the opposite for our allies.
It’d feel pointless, and almost insulting ^^, to continue. Lemmygrad and Hexbear are really apart from the rest of Lemmy/‘the Internet’.I’ve also seen a moderator of that community, who is also an admin of the instance, promote the horseshoe theory. They are classic western leftists, anti-communist, anti-revolutionary, pro western imperialism/colonialism.
Yeah, i.d.k. if trotskyists or anarchists would be the correct words, there’s probably some kind of “slang” for that.
Ideally, they should still continue to talk with us though, we should talk with them, and with any ideology, that’s how we become better at defending/understanding ‘our side’/‘the world’. I’m not against some safe space for those who prefer to stop being disturbed by liberals, but since i argued towards tolerance back there, and am inclined to anyway, i’d say that rejecting them because they reject us wouldn’t be as correct as exchanging with them.
Obviously, it’s not a request to anyone here, do as you want, just that i didn’t create this post(, and talk with them,) in order to trash them afterwards behind their back(, and they probably don’t realize that if it’s not ok for you to criticize/trash them, then it shouldn’t be ok for them to do the same).
I’ve linked this post to @Camus in a comment after posting it b.t.w., so they may look at your comments(, but should judge you on the frontpage anyway).The very same french leftists that were in support of the first world war
I can’t say i’ve never heard this accusation since they promised not to fight, and there’s the murder of Jean Jaurés, but i’ve never heard the opposite side, it seems like they didn’t have a choice since we’d have been invaded by the austrian emperor ?
(but i get that it was also a way to say “since a long time”)today support the delivery of weapons to Ukraine instead of negotiating for peace
It’d be a political suicide for a french political leader to overtly&frankly support Russia while opposing Ukraine(, we have François Asselineau but he can’t present himself anymore, and wouldn’t really be invited/known that much anyway), even if we can surprisingly find some accusations of relative/unassumed/‘risky sentences of’ support, aimed at both our far-right and far-left, who are usually speaking of making peace now, and sometimes even of the role that n.a.t.o. played in driving ukrainians apart from Russia, and of their intents towards Russia for doing so.
But yeah, there’s no disagreement on my part, we think the same thing.And don’t feel an obligation to answer, i was mostly thinking out loud here.
I didn’t clarify it in my first comment, but I’m personally against a defederation from jlai.lu. Even though I decided not to interact anymore, I understand that some comrades would still want to and I don’t want to take that away from them.
I agree with you that we should interact with them to try to expand their views, I just know from experience that I’m way too sensitive and not emotionally strong enough from that kind of heat. I’m quickly drained and feel anxious and borderline depressed, so I prefer to abstain for my own mental health.
The comment I linked in my edit is a good example of that. If I read someone calling me a “red fascist” for being pro-lgbt, pro-minority rights, anti-imperialist, and saying that I should be killed, it makes me feel way too uncomfortable to want to interact.
our anti-russian propaganda lied when they said that V.Putin rigged the elections
Yeah that’s possible. When I looked for the source of that image in their side bar to understand what was its meaning, what I found were western articles saying that the communists were protesting a rigged election. Maybe there was another narative but I didn’t look further than that.
I can’t say i’ve never heard this accusation since they promised not to fight
I heard about it in a Gabriel Rockhill lecture, who’s pretty much an expert on french leftist theory. I’m not very knowledgeable about it myself actually, I’ll try to look it up tomorrow if I can find the time.
Edit: I found the Gabriel Rockhill lecture. He actually talks about the european marxists in general supporting world war one, not the french one specifically. I’m updating my other comment to reflect it.
Thanks for your comments b.t.w.
They ended up banning me after this comment, seems like some topics shouldn’t be answered, or perhaps because they realized you were reading them on hebear, i.d.k. and w/e(, even if there was a lot of things to answer, including about neo-colonialism) 🤷
I didn’t do much with my comments honestly. As I said I would rather not interact, but when Camus quoted me to try to make a point I had to say something.
Thank you for debating them for so long, it’s crazy that you can tank so much liberal brain rot without going crazy honestly. You’re a legend man.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
is the goat our very own adrian zenz?
He’s also the mod of MeanwhileOnGrad, i didn’t realize that(, but this list of post is based on nothing anyway, i’ve analysed it in french and the titles are way worse than the content).
And in any case, even if these accusations were pertinent(, they aren’t), it’d obviously not be fair to judge an instance based on a community focused on archiving the worst 🤷.
(just to reiterate : this list of post is less important than the previous discussion in their eyes apparently, and there’s also a third factor with their admin being “anti-authoritarian”. Mostly, they’ve never interacted with Hexbear and Lemmygrad users before, but you could find some comments saying that it’s nice to have us in their feed because they’re learning a thing of two about anti-imperialism)
Since OP pinged me, and is also banned since for this attempt at brigading/shit stirring and overall bad faith posting, I’ll do a quick recap of what actually happened.
Some jlai.lu guy got manhandled somewhere on the lemmyverse by a hexbear user and opened a thread on the Meta community of jlai.lu, used to discuss the instance functioning.
Pretty much told him to fuck off, that’s internet for you, I don’t intend to defederate.
Some hexbear and grad user then, for some reason, ended up in this thread behaving like monkeys shitting in their hands and throwing it on people.
Most of jlai.lu users then, when confronted to these people, wanted nothing to do with them and wanted us to defederate.
Since it was not one guy anymore and me having something else to do in my weekend to handle children on the internet, opened a vote to see if it was a general request or just a few people wanting to defederate.
The vote is still on-going, and hexbear defederated us because I guess they didn’t like people challenging their bullshit and hurting their circlejerk.
The list of things listed in the thread is the list of reasons I was given as a reason to de-federate. I didn’t check because I simply don’t care since I’m against the defederation in the first place. I gave my standing in the different threads and in separate comments, as long as what I think of tankies and overall defederation.
I, as a long time internet user, even participated in the flame war because I think this is funny, but actually replied to people actually wanting to discuss.
I’m still not for defederation because I think this is a nothingburger that ended up a subject entirely because of your (grad and bear) own making, but since there is no positive or interesting participation between our instances mostly due to the language barrier, I won’t veto a defederation if the overall community don’t want to bother with your toxic members.
Some hexbear and grad user then, for some reason, ended up in this thread behaving like monkeys shitting in their hands and throwing it on people.
You said the people here and on Hexbear deserve to be thrown down a well, and you have the nerve to come here and whine about civility?
I told you the fr*nch are scum
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As I said on hexbear, I thought that an obvious reference to the Chinese tale of the frog in the well, in this context, would be funny, but I guess there was some over-expectation of the level of literacy of the average reader.
Even then, taken literally, this post was made well after the thread where you people were asking for terrorist attacks in France and overall genocide of French people, so I once again would like to point out the double standard.
Also, there is a difference between whining and explaining, but whatever you want to make yourself the victim, bébou.
You can hide behind Shrek references to make your threats if you want, they are still threats.
Everyone thinks what you said was gross, and your response to that is a classist “they think I’m gross because everyone else is so less educated than me”. That’s not it bro, it doesn’t matter, that’s not what the problem is, you can rob a bank and tell the police “but it was just a reference to Casa de Papel man, don’t you get it?” it won’t change anything about what will happen to you. This is literally you right now.
You need to log off and try to do some self-criticism. And if you find yourself in leftist spaces again in the future, know that you won’t get any sympathy with classist remarks in those places.
fueling the flamewar i see
Frankly what is the point of saying that ? Hexbear and Lemmygrad users insulted them as well, can’t we just live in peace, like i can’t argue for them to accept us if you reject them
In any case it’s close to midnight in France so he probably won’t answer anyone hereAnd I recommend every Hexbear and Lemmygrad users who brigaded jlai.lu and insulted them to do some serious self-criticism too. I don’t want to pretend that what was said wasn’t grave when the person behind it tries so hard to minimize it, that entire episode created a lot of heat and I don’t want it to be for nothing, I want to see some growth emerge out of it.
I don’t mind disengaging and let you handle all of it, I would prefer it actually, but in the end there can’t be acceptance if either side think they can disrespect the other.
Wow, it’s the perfect example of me not realizing that someone was really nice in the end, i’m sorry.
Engage all you want, just i don’t think that he’ll be there and it feels useless/‘less constructive’ to be agressive, but you’re ultra-nice in this comment do what you want :)I realise that my comment could be seen both as mean or as “nice” (I wouldn’t go as far as calling it nice personally, maybe neutral), It’s complicated to convey tone and intent through text. Also I’m particularly tired so I’m not making the best efforts to put in the form. Anyway I’m done for the night.
“I’m just joking about murdering you bro, come on, it’s your fault you’re too ignorant to get it” – this sort of shit is why I told you to fuck off. You are just trolling and getting the appropriate response: disrespect.
this post was made well after the thread where you people were asking for terrorist attacks in France
You don’t get to whine about this when you do the same exact thing. You can either be honest, acknowledge that people get heated on the internet sometimes, and acknowledge that you do that too, or you can keep up the insults and pretend like there isn’t shit all over your hands as well.
Look lets not be unable to self reflect here, there has been a large meme that I do not fully understand the context behind, nor the bennifit from, of randomly hating french people, and this is a problem, especialy when you cary that into the french instance. You are right that it is probably not the best look especialy for an admin to mention throwing us into a well, but lets also be congnsent of our actions here too, when you start out on anti-french sentiment, for reasons based on frenchness, you are not going to get welcomeing results, and to be honest starting a flaim war is the best possible interpritation of that.
You are right that it is probably not the best look especialy for an admin to mention throwing us into a well
My point is that if one says things like this, I’m not going to care if they complain about the same kind of violent wishcasting being aimed at them (and I’m definitely not going to care if they tut-tut about someone merely being abrasive or profane). They’re just being dishonest, and there’s no reason to engage with that.
Besides, none of this is about saying mean things anyway. It’s about a few of the most active users over there thinking that if you support AES states you’re a fascist. They aren’t willing to have any sort of good faith conversation with you or me; they think we’re basically brownshirts, they think we should be thrown in a well. One of my first comments in their defederation thread was asking this Anansi asshole a genuine question about atrocity propaganda – no insults, no jokes, just “the west has lied about this in the past so I’m skeptical of them today.” The very first reply included:
Seing all of you parading as “true” leftists while spouting the chinese equivalent of hasbara and not even seing the irony in this makes me hate you even more that shitlibs
Licking the boots of yet another authoritarian regime with state capitalism and a history of purging minorities
That’s what they think of you and me. This is what they are upset about – not mean words – and they are unwilling to discuss it.
Look what I am saying is that us wishcasting because someone is french, is not going to help, and is far more damaging to our aims and allows them a way to immedatly deflect any of our points, its not helpful and it also and opens up the door to shitposting that only elevates the tempreture.
Also are you saying you are so unprincipled that insults are going to make you lash out? that because they do not know what they do not know, and are opperating on the propoganda they are fed and bombarded with? We need to keep our cool, WE need to learn how to discuss it with a hostile audence. Unless this is your first day as a Marxist you should both know and expect this to be the thoughts on our opinions, we cannot let that break us into insults and “edgelording” no we must keep our cool.
wishcasting because someone is french, is not going to help, and is far more damaging to our aims and allows them a way to immedatly deflect any of our points
Agreed. I don’t make those sorts of comments, and I’ve pushed back on them under this username and others in the past. But I also understand there are good reasons to be deeply angry over the crimes of empire, and I’ve seen how being perfectly civil doesn’t get you far, either.
We need to keep our cool, WE need to learn how to discuss it with a hostile audence.
When someone responds to a discussion of atrocity propaganda with “I hate you, you just want to kill minorities,” you are no longer trying to discuss anything with that person. You’re now making arguments for the people reading along. You don’t have to be a doormat to do that, and being too conciliatory can give the impression that your argument isn’t that strong.
“I’m just joking about murdering you bro, come on, it’s your fault you’re too ignorant to get it” – this sort of shit is why I told you to fuck off. You are just trolling and getting the appropriate response: disrespect.
To cite an intellectual :
You don’t get to whine about this when you do the same exact thing.
You can either be honest, acknowledge that people get heated on the internet sometime, and acknowledge that you do that too, or you can keep up the insults and pretend like there isn’t shit all over your hands, too.
If you could read more than a sentence, you’d have read that in my response above.
Yeah, I respond in a flame war started by stupid people because it’s funny, but when I come with a witty reference after you call for a french genocide, you are here whining and projecting that behavior on me lol.
You’re just trying to make yourself a victim, I get it, but I don’t really care. You could have called for my mum to be raped I wouldn’t have cared any less.
My point was just that tankies came in a thread to throw shit, and now are crying that shit are being sent back. You just think I’m trolling because you missed a reference to a tale that we are taught about in primary school, you do you.
I can say that I was never tought that tale in school, personaly
I never heard about it before either : https://zhongwenhub.com/frog-in-the-well-5-ways-to-use-the-chinese-idiom/
“The Frog in the Well” is a proverb used to describe being ignorant of the world outside one’s limited environment.
Here’s the wiki, and out of the 348 fables translated in english here, it is among the 20 ones translated in other languages
I’ve already said that both sides fueled the flamewar, but it’s worth adding that anansi agreed there was a great deal of shitposting that day, and honestly i also feel that it’s worth repeating that it’s not a good reason to defederate because of that since it doesn’t happen often.
Furthermore, it did happen under a post that was vexing, usually a warning followed by a temporary ban towards the angriest(/hurt) members of Hexbear and Lemmygrad could be resorted to in order to appease some tensions, defederating wasn’t an option on reddit. It feels like jlai.lu shouldn’t defederate with Hexbear and Lemmygrad at least if it’s solely for this reason.an authoritarian remains an authoritarian and that the only place they deserve is down a well, not forgetting to strike the hands that try to escape with a big stick
That has nothing to do with the fable you found; it’s very plainly “those people I’m comparing to Nazis should be killed like Nazis.” Surprise surprise, “it’s a joke bro!” yet again turns out to be bullshit.
If you could read more than a sentence
Fuck off
See, should have read the rest too!
Do not message me ever again
I thought that you wanted to defederate because you didn’t like tankies, but even the german instance has defederated, and many more, the french one kinda seems unavoidable as well
Thank you very much for the effort of posting here, you’re behaving in a more adult manner than some people (t)here, and even it’ll probably not lead to much, i sincerely appreciate the effort/sincerity
(bye :))
I don’t like tankies, I even hate them and all they represent historically.
But as I said openly in the initial thread, this is not enough of a reason to defederate.
My mistake for thinking it was enough reason for you to defederate then, 👍
We’ve already talked about it, but for the others my point of view is that you’re believing anti-communist propaganda from a capitalist-owned country 🤷
First, I am going to say I do agree with you hexbear is super fast to their own detrement with defederating, this seems to come from there olden days isolation and fear of anything changing there culture, I am not sure if it is about challenging their views or not, however I will agree they weild bans and defederations incredibly fast.
Second everything I got was through re-reading the thread both with my attrocious french skills, so I gave up and ran it through google translate. and I would agree that what happened was a nothing burger, it seemed like mostly an argument where one person was upset being called a Nazi Sympithiser and the other was upset that their claim was being miss represented, with lots of claims of brigading that from what I can tell was not likely what was happening. I am not a lemmy expert but I do know that it is possible to find organicly posts on other instances, and it turned into a total mess.
I would like to challange that this is entirely because of the grad and hex for 2 reasons, First i do not remember very many lemmygrad users, and second this was bringing up not just the personal grudge match of the idividuals, but calling for a defederation and pulling something from a year back, we also have people calling for a change in platform because the devs of lemmy have Castro profile pictures. This is not to say users from here and hex have no blame, as that would be rediculous, there was no attempt to prevent the tempreture of the discussion to rapidly rise.
Third I do take issue with the final labeling intentional or incidental that all of the members here are toxic, There are users from other instances that will start a fight merely because you use the grad or are a .ml user, so both in the userbase here being toxic, and on the range of toxicity I do not think as a whole we rank super highly
lastly, still not sure why this post was needed
I’m not sure why some on jlailu were so insistent on singling out both lemmygrad and hexbear because I did a ctrl+f on that first defed thread and only found two comments from lemmygrad users. Unless there were other threads I missed this was about the extent of “our” participation.
From my exprence we seem to be the larger over all target, and long term, hexbear seems to be more out there and easier to point at for “bad behavior” so we get lumped in together every time. You will never see someone just complain about hexbear, they will always lump us in with it.
pulling something from a year back,
I’m pretty sure that it was just for context if you’re referring to the previous post about defederating.
we also have people calling for a change in platform because the devs of lemmy have Castro profile pictures.
To which you don’t even see me entertaining the argument.
I also call for a change in platform, but it’s because they are shit devs and project managers, releasing broken updates after broken updates, ignoring security issues and overall not being good devs.
I don’t care about who makes an open-source product, but that’s another subject.
there was no attempt to prevent the tempreture of the discussion to rapidly rise.
I mean they came over already hot, I’m always up for shitposting but seems I’m in the minority.
Third I do take issue with the final labeling intentional or incidental that all of the members here are toxic
Tbh you were just put in the toxic tankies bin with hexbears because you are the only other instance users that came up directly flinging shit in the initial thread, your initial reputation and I cbb.
Are there still any Right-Wing instances I don’t mean by “centrist” instances like Right-Wing like Exploding Heads or Wolfballs are something similar or close.
(Depends on your criteria for “right” obv, but )With ~600 instances there’s a chance yeah, however i don’t immediately see one here : https://lemmyverse.net
In general, it’s noticeable how much the far-right feels mostly absent from the internet(, well, even if you can still find a handful of subreddits and some twitter circles), i can’t remember ever really talking with any of them for more than 1-2 comments.
Perhaps is it a question of platforms(, e.g., 4Chan,) and age.It’s a platform question. The communists created Lemmy, so we have established sites here that can resist defederation, but the far-right never was able to really take hold in the same way since defederation would be a bigger punishment to them (Truth Social being an exception to this rule) and they already have platforms anyways.
