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- cross-posted to:
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During a recent episode of The Verge’s Decoder podcast, Logitech CEO Hanneke Faber shed some possible insight into the company’s view on one of its most important products. Saying that “the mouse built this house,” Faber shares the planning behind a Forever Mouse, a premium product that the company hopes will be the last you ever have to buy. There’s also a discussion about a subscription-based service and a deeper focus on AI.
For now, details on a Forever Mouse are thin, but you better believe there will be a catch. The Instant Pot was a product so good that customers rarely needed to buy another one. The company went bankrupt.
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premium mouse that receives constant updates
Come on. How many firmware updates can we really expect for a mouse?
I’ve had an m570 for about 10 years. Every time it broke, I fixed it. Why do we need a subscription?
This is not about you, but about them. It’s not that you need a subscription. It’s that they need you to have a subscription.
But they need to convince me that the subscription is worthwhile!
If you are going to ask questions maybe you are not the target demographic.
Damned straight! I’ll stick with my boring old non-ai grandpa mouse.
Back in my day the mice had a tail, no scroll wheel, and only 2 buttons!
Back in my day, mice had balls.
We used trackballs and loved them. We greased the mechanism with our forehead sweat as was the fashion at the time.
When I were a lad, we used vi.
But they need to convince me that the subscription is worthwhile!
They’ll remove any mice from the market that doesn’t have a subscription model and others will follow suit.
Future mouse DLC: “Special promotion! $5 discount on unlocking right mouse button!”
They’ll remove any mice from the market that doesn’t have a subscription model and others will follow suit.
Good luck with removing aliexpress mice from the market
I doubt the open source options will be adopting this strategy either.
I have a ploopy trackball and love it.
How does it compare to the m570?
I use a left handed one, so I can’t really comment on most ergonomic computer accessories.
If they only had a thumb trackball…
Like this?
Damn, I never thought to look there! Thanks!
Not if they and their competitors remove all the other options.
Nah. There will always be companies just selling a mouse.
You wouldn’t print a mouse.
Are they bluetooth?
Hell yeah!
How many firmware updates can we really expect for a mouse?
Almost none, why the hell would a mouse ever need firmware updates except to fix fuckups? It has one job, translate clicks and movements into signals for the computer.
I used an HP dead stock “this ships with every computer we sell” optical mouse for twenty years before it broke.
All my mice are similar ages, even my Logitech wireless.
I did just have a 15 year old one die, but it got used about 8 hours a day all that time.
So Logitech can bill every one of its customers every month.
No sale. It’s ridiculous.
No sale.
Joke’s on you; they’re into that shit. Their techno-feudalist wet dream is to force you into rentals for everything.
This from a company who refused to update their drivers for a USB speaker system for 7, even though it was still actively being sold at stores.
I had bought it a few months earlier at a Fry’s, on sale. I think the sku was just about 2 years old, just expiring on their support policy, as a new OS dropped.
Their customer support told to me kick sand.
Fuck Logitech. Their Mice are the only thing I’ve continued to use because they are actually reliable. But now they’re trying to enshitify that behind a subscription, so that’s it.
Instant Pot was a product so good that customers rarely needed to buy another one. The company went bankrupt.
Bull-fucking-shit. That’s just not how any of this works.
There are plenty of companies that make appliances that last a long fucking time, and don’t have to rely on fucking DLC micro transaction AI bullshit. The reason Instant Pot went bankrupt is the same reason a ton of popular companies have recently had issues: They got bought by private equity (who also owned Pyrex and fucked them over), saddled with a shitton of bad debt, squeezed of every bit of brand value they had, and then left to fall apart as the PE firm made off with millions.
The fact that the writer correlated “quality, durable good” with “unsuccessful business and bankruptcy” is absolutely one of the worst takes, and really shows just how pervasive this disgusting idea of “must be disposable to be profitable” really is.
Thank you for typing this up because I was not capable of doing it because vitriol messes up my WPM.
Partially true, but also they wouldn’t invest in something that lasts forever (without it costing an absurd amount of money or the subscription requirement). I like this video that shows the issue pretty well. (TLDW: Communist Germany made glass so durable it didn’t break as a product to sell to the west. No company would purchase it though because they made most of their profit from selling replacements. The glass is now what we call Gorilla Glass, which is really only available on phones, which are designed to be replaced every few years anyway.)
100 years ago there was a meeting amongst lightbulb manufacturers that all collectively agreed to only design light bulbs to last about 1,000 hours. They were known as The Phoebus Cartel and Included Phillips and GE. Up until this agreement lighbulbs were typically lasting up to 2,500 hours. The manufacturers essentially created the concept of planned obsolescence because people weren’t buying as many lighbulbs as they wanted and it was decided to stop making longer lasting bulbs with higher costs. The whole thing started falling apart (competition of non members that were making bulbs, but they were all small operations, as well as patent expirations that GE had) and the start of world War two pretty much broke it up, as the Cartel couldn’t keep everything regulated and tested due to all the travel restrictions and such. But it still remains as the first global wide creation of planned obsolescence.
Extra fun fact: the common light socket screw design/size has remained the same since 1880.
That is mostly a myth. They did agree of the lifetime, but it wasn’t planned obsolescence like people act. The lifetime of a bulb is directly related to how bright it is. If you make a really dim bulb it lasts a long time, which is how that one in the firehouse is still alive. It’s so dim it’s effectively useless. The group met to decide on a luminosity target, which also is a lifespan target effectively.
Yes, A dim bulb is extremely inefficient, it will use a lot of electricity for a very small amount of light.
On the other hand you can make very efficient lightbulb that will be very bright for a small amount of electricity but last only for a few minutes.
The 1000 hours limits is a nice middle ground.
And what of the noble gas filled bulbs that were both brighter and longer lasting?
i mean, all incandecant bulbs are filled with a noble gas, Argon. If they didnt any bulb would have a lifespan measured in seconds.
Back in the 1920’s and earlier they were commonly just in a vacuum.
Not if you read/believe most of the info on the wiki. US government fined GE over it in 1949.
No, even the wiki (under “purpose”) says the myth is probably not true. It was a cartel though, and therefore illegal in many/most places. It just wasn’t because the planned obsolescence. Lowering lifespan also led to selling more bulbs though, so it was useful for that.
Businesses could save a lot of money by just firing their CEOs
If anyone’s job could be replaced with ChatGPT, it’s these chucklefucks.
And now I no longer wish to buy Logitech products…
I no longer wished to use Logitech products after using G-Hub. Most horrible software.
I set my settings using ghub then stored it on the mouse and uninstalled ghub. Works really well for me
I stopped when they added AI to their software
Logitech’s desire to put AI in my IO devices is exactly why I am moving to a different manufacturer. I want solid hardware, not hardware as a service. HP also is trying this with printers and it’s total bullshit.
If I am paying a monthly fee, I’d better not also have to buy garbage hardware. That better be provided for free and replaced when it inevitably fails.
Logitech pissed me off years ago when they didn’t honour a warranty because I bought a flawed product before they extended the warranty on them.
I have not even been tempted by their products because there are so many other peripheral manufacturers out there that put out great products.
I hate this approach to business.
Coupling subscriptions with forced obscolecence is a nightmare. If HP made the best printer money could buy, using it with a subscription model would be a hard sell. But they make shit printers that die at the drop of a hat, so coupling them with a subscription is asinine.
Logitech makes a decent mouse, passable webcams, and shit keyboards.
Just in case anyone from Logitech ever reads this, I own 2 MX Verticals, an MX Ergo, and an MX Master 2S. I love them all, but I’d rather use an OEM bog standard Dell mouse than pay for a subscription.
They don’t even make good mice technically because of planned obsolescence.
Their switches die, intentionally, long before the life time of any other components on their mice. And have for nearly 10 years now.
They way I got introduced to hardware as a service is that it was a solution to planned obsolescence.
In theory, a hardware subscription means that if you pay for X months of that hardware, you gonna get it. Doesn’t matter if it breaks, it should be replaced while your subscription lasts.
So taking that into account, the less the hardware breaks, the more profit they have. So not only should it eliminate planned obsolescence, it would make engineering for durable products an actually very profitable business.
So, what is the difference between this approach and just selling an extended warranty?
With subscription you don’t own the product, but also you don’t pay up front.
With subscription, you should be able to buy as many months as you want. With extended warranty, I think companies usually only sell 1 extended warranty per item.
(I’m pulling the prices out of my ass, don’t try to calculate which one is more “worth it”.
Extended warranty:
30€ for the mouse (3 years warranty) 5€ 1 year extended warranty.
You are sure to have the item for at least 4 years. After that, you can use it until it breaks.
Subscription:
1€/month
You get to use the mouse for exactly the months you paid for. No more, no less
Also, with subscriptions you are likely to get a second hand item. But when you buy the item you are gonna get 1st hand unless you shop at Amazon.
I personally wouldn’t buy a subscription, I prefer to own it. However, I’ll admit that it’s not black and white, and subscriptions also have some benefits.
Another way instead of per time window is per use. For example, in the case of a mouse, per clicks.
So if you buy 1.000.000 clicks and rarely use the computer, you get to own the mouse for a very long time for very cheap, just in case you ever want to use it. This is basically today’s planned obsolescence, except the item doesn’t become trash, the company would just reset the counter and you or the next client can keep using it. If you use it a lot, it’s going to become real expensive real fast though.
I used to just buy Logitech when I needed something because it’s good quality and good value, they seem to be intent on moving away from both
The Logitech UltraX Flat was hands down the best keyboard I ever used in my life. Sadly after decades of use (with a ps/2 to usb adapter) at some point some key pressure sensors started failing, so I had to switch. But I swear if I ever see a new one on ebay, I’ll get it in a heartbeat.
The Logitech k120 is a worthy warrior. Id never get an expensive keyboard from them though
It’s really insane that they want the good press and loweree manufactured volume of a quality item… But also for it to fail and you need to buy up whenever they arbitrarily say so.
It’s horrifying. Absolutely broken fucking mindset that only works if we truly are trapped having to buy from them and I just don’t see how that can be true before someone says fuck it and competes.
It’s so grossly profit seeking I just will feel really defeated if it actually works.
I’ve already got a Forever Mouse though… I’m using a $25 Logitech M705 I bought 10 years ago, before they cheaped out and replaced the metal scrollwheel with a plastic one. Works great. I have to replace the battery once every two years or so. I’ve got an 11-year-old Logitech mouse at work too.
My MX510 from 2005 died recently. I’m sure it’s just a cable issue since if I straighten it out perfectly, once in a while I can still get a signal through. So I’m contemplating of desoldering it and put a new one in, it was otherwise flawless.
MX Master Series has a metal scroll wheel. It’s an amazing mouse for my purposes.
Expensive, yes, but I have no doubt it’ll outlast a lot of other mice.
My g9x is getting flakey, and I’m very sad.
The Instant Pot was a product so good that customers rarely needed to buy another one. The company went bankrupt.
Man, we had to replace the fuse on ours four times before we gave up on it; I don’t think ‘product longevity’ was a major factor in the brand’s downfall. It also did a shit job of cooking rice.
I also highly doubt Logitech’s ability to make a “forever” mouse with how many I’ve had to RMA due to faulty left click switches. Get your product design, supply chain, and QA in order before you start trying to tie people down with wholly unnecessary and unwanted subscriptions. Shitty ent seeking MBA vampires fucking everything up for everyone.
Instant Pot didn’t simply go bankrupt. It was busted out by private equity.
Oh see I didn’t interpret the forever mouse as a single product, more likely they’d like to use even cheaper switches and components and make RMA/replacement normal under the subscription. New mouse every year for just $14.99/month - what a deal! Right, guys? Guys?
The Instant Pot is actually great at cooking rice using the pot-in-pot method: put a plain metal bowl with your rice and water (usually 1:1 ratio) in the Instant Pot on a wire rack and add about 1 1/2 cups of water to the Instant Pot. Steam for 10 minutes for white rice. Perfect every time.
We just got a rice cooker instead
Yeah I’d love to but I already have too many kitchen gadgets and not enough storage space 😂
Another proof ceo’s that most of those cunts in charge either got there by winning the birth lottery or bullshitted their way up and are complete clueless idiots. Any sane person with an idea of what they are doing knows its all bullshit.
Oh wow I never wanted to stop buying Logitech before. I guess there’s a first time for everything. Fuck this noise.
yeah, I’ve always gone for Logitech and they have had great customer support. i guess I’ll have to look for something else next time i replace a peripheral.
Really? They went to shit over a decade ago. Cheap $30 Chinese Amazon mice surpassed Logitech in quality around 2013. I was getting so sick and tired of spending $80 on a mouse with a middle click that was going to break in a couple of years.
I really like their master MX master mice. I find them much more comfortable than alternatives.
Yeah I bought a Logitech mouse and a little after a year the right click went bad. It would randomly click twice, never stop clicking, or not click at all. I ended up ordering some replacement japanese switches on digikey for like $5, unsoldered the old ones and resoldered the new ones. It’s been close to 10 years now and with the new switches, it’s the best mouse I’ve ever owned. I’m not happy with Logitech but I am happy with my custom mouse
2013 might be an exaggeration, but yea most Chinese brand mouses (Lamzu for example) are solid picks unless you care about software
The answer to this is simple. Go private. Get a buyout and delist so you aren’t literally required to permanently and constantly grow your company bigger and sell more than you did last year for the rest of eternity in the name of the almighty shareholders.
Sell great hardware to people who need it, develop a loyal fan base, and treat them right, forever. I guarantee that the rate of valid, reasonable purchases of high-quality, durable new mice and keyboards is more than enough to sustain a very healthy company full of very talented employees forever, as long as they aren’t required to always make more money than ever before.
Welp, looks like I just bought my last Logitech mouse. I’ve sworn by them for over 20 years.
Nope, fuck you Logitech.
same. every logitech peripheral i’ve ever had was great, and the one time an old mouse i’d been using for 2 years broke, i emailed them about it and they sent me a MX master 2S, which was several tiers above the one i had, for free.
oh well. time to find a new mouse brand
Their flight sim stuff is absolute fucking garbage
Weird, because I’m pretty sure all other mice can be used forever, as long as they don’t break.
I’m pretty sure the ‘forever’ part refers to the payment model.
Then I will “forever” not buy anything from them
Allow me to translate the business language to understandable terms…we (Logitech) will sell customers (us) a hook. When they bite, they bite forever. They will pay us (Logitech) to use their own hardware! What a bunch of idiots!
Additionally I would like to propose that we don’t sign up for apple or other fruit rentals or delivery subscriptions. If you want a banana, go to the market and get one. Then eat the banana. It should cost only a few cents since you basically consume the thing. Now, if you want a mouse, go to Amazon and buy one from there that is not Logitech. Then just hook it up to the computer and use it! That’s it! In fact, if you don’t return it, your compromise with the seller ends when they deliver it to your door. Both you and the seller walk away happy. There’s no fucking subscription to a mouse! WTF! That’s a company with two legs just about done shooting one off.
Additionally I would like to propose that we don’t sign up for apple or other fruit rentals or delivery subscriptions.
Not yet
Well switches for their MX Master series break all the damn time.
I hate that I keep buying them, but they really are a perfect mouse other than the fatal flaw that pops up about 19 seconds after the warranty expires…
Yeach unfortunetly purerly from ergonomical point of view those mf truly make the best mouses at every price point . Cheap 10 dolars mouse and keyboard, still the best ergonomics for this price. Lift , ergonomical mastery ,pure joy to use. Unfortunetly switch broke after a year and a half and since it was company provided mouse from the time when they went on a shopping spree for office equipment they dont have then anymore ( i literaly took the last one ). Now the only replacment i got is the cheap mouse and keyboard also from Logitech that on the other hand refuses to break and i want a goddam excuse to buy myself something better.
I’m at the point where I’m maintaining three classic thumbball mice with a bag of replacement microswitches. I wouldn’t consider that viable for the typical consumer, but it works for me. Also these particular bluetooth models come with their own USB-A receiver, so I don’t rely on software updates either.
That said, the ploopy thumbball may be my next daily driver.
Trying to make a flagship product and keep it pumped up through subscription sounds a lot like live service games.
And those all fucking suck.
Fuck that, no thanks! How about you build repairable mice that can last forever instead?
With open source firmware. Preferably QMK + VIA.
User-serviceable switches would be so nice…
