It’s easy to make a 100mpg car. All you need is to make it small, flimsy, no aircon, no heater, no stereo, no airbags, toss emissions standards out, pack you in like a snake going up a bear’s anus, and drive around at a steady 25 mph without any stops.
Idk, Dutch micro cars are pretty comfortable. They’re quieter, safer for pedestrians, and environmentally friendly. Had a chance to use one last time I was in the Netherlands. The American mindset of “it has to be a giga-truck or it’s bad” really sucks.
They’re cute but very niche. They’re very expensive for what they are, those weird plastic folding windows are not fully waterproof, and the ami generally inferior to a scooter in every way except safety kinda. It’s not like it can carry more than a large grocery bag anyway.
Owning that car really tells a complete story: “I am a 16/17 yo suburbanite so I can’t get my license yet, daddy/mommy is tired of driving me to school, my wealthy parents won’t let me ride a moped because it’s too dangerous, and riding a bicycle or the bus isn’t even an option for someone of my social standing”.
Unsurprisingly, it’s not been selling particularly well. Which is a good thing, because what cities need is more micromobility solutions not cars cosplaying as micromobility.
I was leaning more on the “I am a 30/40 yo city worker who lives in a small village with no train station and poor bus service. I don’t have kids, but like weekend getaways with my partner and this car speaks to my meagre price range and eco sensibilities.”
You see these moped cars driven by exclusively four groups of people:
Teenagers who can’t get a drivers license yet but whose parents have money to waste on shit like this
Serial traffic offenders (usually DUI) whose license has been taken away and they can’t get a new one, either for a while, or ever
Old people whose health is too bad to be allowed to drive a car
People who just for some reason can’t pass the normal drivers education and exams.
They’re pretty much just a legal loophole for most people.
I am a 30/40 yo city worker who lives in a small village with no train station and poor bus service. I don’t have kids, but like weekend getaways with my partner
Good luck driving to the city every day, or going on weekend getaways, at max 45 km/h. If you go over that, police will have your car inspected in case you’ve defeated the speed limiter. If you have, it’s illegal to drive it.
I can see why you MIGHT think it’s a good idea, but what you’re really looking for in the scenario you imagined, is a nice tiny car that’s actually allowed to be used as a car. I.e: Allowed to go above 45 km/h, available used for a sensible price, etc. Toyota Yaris, Nissan Leaf if it has to be electric, etc. The Leaf isn’t even that tiny, but first gen ones are much cheaper than an Ami.
Then get a small car like a VW Up. It will be cheaper, will be more practical in literally every way, and will have a lot more range. It’s also not limited to 45 km/h, which you will quickly find is painful on the kinds of semi-rural roads that separate your hypothetical village from the city.
With a 75 km announced range and no fast charging (!) your best bet for a weekend getaway is to use the Ami to get to the nearest train station. Hell, if you can’t charge at work it might even struggle to get you back home.
The Ami is simply a terrible value proposition if it’s your only mode of transportation. And if it’s your secondary mode of transportation, then its carbon footprint skyrockets as all the lithium that makes up its battery will hardly be used over its lifetime.
One can always make up a scenario where someone, somewhere, somehow has the exact situation to justify such a purchase, but it is very niche. What Citroen really tries to market it as is a “city car”, which is anything but a green concept but also the only way a 45 km/h car with 75 km of range actually makes sense.
Sweden and Denmark are 47th and 44th in the number of cars per capita. They aren’t even in the lower 2/3 of countries. Out of the lowest half of countries on the list, the only one where it regularly gets cold is Greenland.
Entirely orthogonal to the discussion. These countries are wealthy and do have lots of suburban and rural areas where families are likely to have one or multiple cars.
That doesn’t in any way contradict the fact that many people in Copenhagen and Stockholm cycle daily, regardless of the season. And in case you haven’t been: there’s regularly rain and/or snow.
I don’t understand where this idea comes from that spending 15 minutes outside when it’s barely freezing is some kind of superhuman feat. Like, bruh, it’s chilly, put on a coat and get over it.
That might work fine for small, densely packed European cities but it won’t work in most of the US. I live in Chicago and can drive by car for 45 minutes and still be in the city. It would take me at least 30-40 minutes to bike to work depending on the wind. When it’s -20F outside, that is just not happening.
If you’re in North America, I’m sorry but that’s just not relevant because North Americans decided the only transportation one is allowed to get is a car and the Ami doesn’t sell there because it’s not a car.
If you’re in a North-American style suburb elsewhere in the world, then yeah I get it it sucks. But the Ami isn’t even a pragmatic solution there, because such suburbs tend to be surrounded with roads with 70+ kph speed limits which is much faster than the Ami can even go so you won’t be safe there either. If you can’t get a car and can’t ride a bike or use public transit, the only pragmatic solution is to not live in a car-dependent suburban hellscape.
The Ami is designed for inner city driving where 45 km/h keeps up with the flow of traffic. But where you can comfortably drive an AMI at 45 km/h without holding up traffic, you can also ride a bicycle at 30 km/h, or walk, and there’s probably public transit unless you live in an unusually terrible city (and I say that as someone who lives in a well below-average city).
I’m on the edge of a reasonably big US city. No bus lines, no sidewalks or bike lanes. Just a ditch on the side with lots of big trucks driving 80-90km/hr on curvy, deadly two-lane roads. It sounds rural but I live on the inside of the city’s “loop” highway.
Yeah so my point stands, you need a car. Have you seen an Ami in person? It’s a glorified electric scooter. Think of the tiniest car you’ve ever seen in your life and make it 3x smaller. No way I’m driving that on a US road with trucks overtaking me at 90 km/h, and I say that as an habitual cyclist and motorcycle rider.
Yeah I wasn’t arguing with you, I’ve lived in Germany and the Netherlands and in quite a bit of the US so I’ve seen lots of realities. No I haven’t seen that vehicle in person but I have owned a very fuel efficient motorcycle, fuel was cheap but keeping it running was not. The conversation is broader than one vehicle though.
Honestly I wish it was easier/more cost effective to rent larger vehicles. I use my Subaru beyond it’s capacity way too often but I really could use a larger vehicle and don’t have an extra $100k. The cost of living here has become impossible over the last decade. My daughter’s English boyfriend was shocked how expensive things are here when he visited recently. Cars and food are the worst but in most of the US you have to pay market prices for both and even double the minimum wage is still not a living wage here.
Oh and then there’s rent. If you’re living somewhere with actual public transportation, you’re making a car payments worth of extra rent or property taxes anyway. The only affordable places to live are the highest crime rate areas. Most of the US has very low violent crime outside a few dozen terrible neighborhoods. But it’s affordable there if you don’t mind maybe dying.
I got to see one at a Stellantis exhibition here in the US! Although they won’t be sold here, so IDK why they brought them to a US event. They’re such neat little cars.
I saw someone driving a Microlino the other day. Daft little thing, but you can’t deny it turns heads. If only because people are saying “wtf is that?”
No, that’s pretty much what I mean. I’m having trouble finding references to the gas milage of the Canta, but Kei cars tend to max out around 60mpg, and the Canta is only a bit smaller. I also found plenty of posts from locals saying it’s loud, uncomfortable, and unsafe.
The Peel P50 can get close to 100mpg, but that’s pushing what a person can even fit in. This sort of thing is pushing into “why not get a moped?” territory.
The original Honda Insight from 2001 got 68 highway, 60 city. And it had all the goodies you’d want in a “modern” car like airbags, aircon, heat, 2 relatively roomy seats, etc. Close to the Doodlebug’s best possible mpg with twice the passengers.
Unfortunately, after 20 years of improvement in auto design, material science, etc, the new Honda Insight in 2022 actually has notably worse city /highway mpg from the original, because it’s so much bigger.
I guess my point is all the innovation in the world won’t fix the fundamental problem that people want bigger and bigger cars?
Auto manufacturers want bigger and bigger vehicles, and they’ve done an excellent job of convincing the masses that they aren’t safe without one, or a man, or they’ll look poor. Most people I’d wager if given the proper knowledge and experience wouldn’t want to drive a huge lumbering land whale, they’ve just been told their entire life that they do.
I guess my point is all the innovation in the world won’t fix the fundamental problem that people want bigger and bigger cars?
Frankly, if you could give me airbags, aircon, heat, 2 relatively roomy seats, etc and enough trunk space for groceries in as small a package as my fat ass can reasonably fit in with as good a gas mileage as physically possible I’d be down for that. But then the cars I’ve owned have been things like a Geo Metro 2 seat convertible (it weighed next to nothing, the speedometer stopped at 85 and the straight-3 engine sounded like a swarm of bees that got angrier as you went faster), a Daewoo Lanos, a Kia Forte, a Scion xD (I got talked out of the iQ), and the biggest of the lot - a Toyota Avalon.
It’s that last thing that america (or at least California) has an issue with. We fucking love stop signs. If you have a stop sign every other block, your mpg is gonna be in the range matt gaetz would be interested in regardless of what car you drive.
Buddy, I don’t know when the last time you drove a car in the summer with no AC in dress clothes but I lived that for a few seasons and I’ll say that it’s a bigger problem than the stop signs lol
It’s easy to make a 100mpg car. All you need is to make it small, flimsy, no aircon, no heater, no stereo, no airbags, toss emissions standards out, pack you in like a snake going up a bear’s anus, and drive around at a steady 25 mph without any stops.
Idk, Dutch micro cars are pretty comfortable. They’re quieter, safer for pedestrians, and environmentally friendly. Had a chance to use one last time I was in the Netherlands. The American mindset of “it has to be a giga-truck or it’s bad” really sucks.
I’m in love with the Citroen Ami
I mean just look at this little guy. If I had ovaries, they’d be popping right now.
They’re cute but very niche. They’re very expensive for what they are, those weird plastic folding windows are not fully waterproof, and the ami generally inferior to a scooter in every way except safety kinda. It’s not like it can carry more than a large grocery bag anyway.
Owning that car really tells a complete story: “I am a 16/17 yo suburbanite so I can’t get my license yet, daddy/mommy is tired of driving me to school, my wealthy parents won’t let me ride a moped because it’s too dangerous, and riding a bicycle or the bus isn’t even an option for someone of my social standing”.
Unsurprisingly, it’s not been selling particularly well. Which is a good thing, because what cities need is more micromobility solutions not cars cosplaying as micromobility.
I was leaning more on the “I am a 30/40 yo city worker who lives in a small village with no train station and poor bus service. I don’t have kids, but like weekend getaways with my partner and this car speaks to my meagre price range and eco sensibilities.”
Are you American? Because here in Europe these are expensive and used cars are not.
Here are used moped cars for sale in my country, cheapest first
Here are used cars that require a drivers license
You see these moped cars driven by exclusively four groups of people:
Teenagers who can’t get a drivers license yet but whose parents have money to waste on shit like this
Serial traffic offenders (usually DUI) whose license has been taken away and they can’t get a new one, either for a while, or ever
Old people whose health is too bad to be allowed to drive a car
People who just for some reason can’t pass the normal drivers education and exams.
They’re pretty much just a legal loophole for most people.
Good luck driving to the city every day, or going on weekend getaways, at max 45 km/h. If you go over that, police will have your car inspected in case you’ve defeated the speed limiter. If you have, it’s illegal to drive it.
I can see why you MIGHT think it’s a good idea, but what you’re really looking for in the scenario you imagined, is a nice tiny car that’s actually allowed to be used as a car. I.e: Allowed to go above 45 km/h, available used for a sensible price, etc. Toyota Yaris, Nissan Leaf if it has to be electric, etc. The Leaf isn’t even that tiny, but first gen ones are much cheaper than an Ami.
Then get a small car like a VW Up. It will be cheaper, will be more practical in literally every way, and will have a lot more range. It’s also not limited to 45 km/h, which you will quickly find is painful on the kinds of semi-rural roads that separate your hypothetical village from the city.
With a 75 km announced range and no fast charging (!) your best bet for a weekend getaway is to use the Ami to get to the nearest train station. Hell, if you can’t charge at work it might even struggle to get you back home.
The Ami is simply a terrible value proposition if it’s your only mode of transportation. And if it’s your secondary mode of transportation, then its carbon footprint skyrockets as all the lithium that makes up its battery will hardly be used over its lifetime.
One can always make up a scenario where someone, somewhere, somehow has the exact situation to justify such a purchase, but it is very niche. What Citroen really tries to market it as is a “city car”, which is anything but a green concept but also the only way a 45 km/h car with 75 km of range actually makes sense.
Micromobility will never be a solution for places where it rains a lot or where it gets cold often. People need an enclosed cabin like this.
Uh, yeah, no. Copenhagen and Stockholm are cycling capitals. SE Asia literally gets a monsoon and everyone still rides a motorcycle.
“It’s wet/cold outside” is nothing more than a paltry excuse. There’s a whole NJB video on the subject if you want.
Or it more like “you gotta do what you gotta do.” If it’s all that’s accessible, then it’s really not the virtue you might think it is.
… What exactly do you think the economic situation is in Copenhagen or Stockholm?
Sweden and Denmark are 47th and 44th in the number of cars per capita. They aren’t even in the lower 2/3 of countries. Out of the lowest half of countries on the list, the only one where it regularly gets cold is Greenland.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_motor_vehicles_per_capita
Entirely orthogonal to the discussion. These countries are wealthy and do have lots of suburban and rural areas where families are likely to have one or multiple cars.
That doesn’t in any way contradict the fact that many people in Copenhagen and Stockholm cycle daily, regardless of the season. And in case you haven’t been: there’s regularly rain and/or snow.
I don’t understand where this idea comes from that spending 15 minutes outside when it’s barely freezing is some kind of superhuman feat. Like, bruh, it’s chilly, put on a coat and get over it.
That might work fine for small, densely packed European cities but it won’t work in most of the US. I live in Chicago and can drive by car for 45 minutes and still be in the city. It would take me at least 30-40 minutes to bike to work depending on the wind. When it’s -20F outside, that is just not happening.
riding a s bicycle or the bus isnt even an option
for someone of my social standingthat even exists in my area.If you’re in North America, I’m sorry but that’s just not relevant because North Americans decided the only transportation one is allowed to get is a car and the Ami doesn’t sell there because it’s not a car.
If you’re in a North-American style suburb elsewhere in the world, then yeah I get it it sucks. But the Ami isn’t even a pragmatic solution there, because such suburbs tend to be surrounded with roads with 70+ kph speed limits which is much faster than the Ami can even go so you won’t be safe there either. If you can’t get a car and can’t ride a bike or use public transit, the only pragmatic solution is to not live in a car-dependent suburban hellscape.
The Ami is designed for inner city driving where 45 km/h keeps up with the flow of traffic. But where you can comfortably drive an AMI at 45 km/h without holding up traffic, you can also ride a bicycle at 30 km/h, or walk, and there’s probably public transit unless you live in an unusually terrible city (and I say that as someone who lives in a well below-average city).
I’m on the edge of a reasonably big US city. No bus lines, no sidewalks or bike lanes. Just a ditch on the side with lots of big trucks driving 80-90km/hr on curvy, deadly two-lane roads. It sounds rural but I live on the inside of the city’s “loop” highway.
Yeah so my point stands, you need a car. Have you seen an Ami in person? It’s a glorified electric scooter. Think of the tiniest car you’ve ever seen in your life and make it 3x smaller. No way I’m driving that on a US road with trucks overtaking me at 90 km/h, and I say that as an habitual cyclist and motorcycle rider.
Yeah I wasn’t arguing with you, I’ve lived in Germany and the Netherlands and in quite a bit of the US so I’ve seen lots of realities. No I haven’t seen that vehicle in person but I have owned a very fuel efficient motorcycle, fuel was cheap but keeping it running was not. The conversation is broader than one vehicle though.
Honestly I wish it was easier/more cost effective to rent larger vehicles. I use my Subaru beyond it’s capacity way too often but I really could use a larger vehicle and don’t have an extra $100k. The cost of living here has become impossible over the last decade. My daughter’s English boyfriend was shocked how expensive things are here when he visited recently. Cars and food are the worst but in most of the US you have to pay market prices for both and even double the minimum wage is still not a living wage here.
Oh and then there’s rent. If you’re living somewhere with actual public transportation, you’re making a car payments worth of extra rent or property taxes anyway. The only affordable places to live are the highest crime rate areas. Most of the US has very low violent crime outside a few dozen terrible neighborhoods. But it’s affordable there if you don’t mind maybe dying.
I got to see one at a Stellantis exhibition here in the US! Although they won’t be sold here, so IDK why they brought them to a US event. They’re such neat little cars.
That thing better have some amazing suspension or you should keep it only on well-paved roads.
I saw someone driving a Microlino the other day. Daft little thing, but you can’t deny it turns heads. If only because people are saying “wtf is that?”
No, that’s pretty much what I mean. I’m having trouble finding references to the gas milage of the Canta, but Kei cars tend to max out around 60mpg, and the Canta is only a bit smaller. I also found plenty of posts from locals saying it’s loud, uncomfortable, and unsafe.
The Peel P50 can get close to 100mpg, but that’s pushing what a person can even fit in. This sort of thing is pushing into “why not get a moped?” territory.
The original Honda Insight from 2001 got 68 highway, 60 city. And it had all the goodies you’d want in a “modern” car like airbags, aircon, heat, 2 relatively roomy seats, etc. Close to the Doodlebug’s best possible mpg with twice the passengers.
Unfortunately, after 20 years of improvement in auto design, material science, etc, the new Honda Insight in 2022 actually has notably worse city /highway mpg from the original, because it’s so much bigger.
I guess my point is all the innovation in the world won’t fix the fundamental problem that people want bigger and bigger cars?
Auto manufacturers want bigger and bigger vehicles, and they’ve done an excellent job of convincing the masses that they aren’t safe without one, or a man, or they’ll look poor. Most people I’d wager if given the proper knowledge and experience wouldn’t want to drive a huge lumbering land whale, they’ve just been told their entire life that they do.
Frankly, if you could give me airbags, aircon, heat, 2 relatively roomy seats, etc and enough trunk space for groceries in as small a package as my fat ass can reasonably fit in with as good a gas mileage as physically possible I’d be down for that. But then the cars I’ve owned have been things like a Geo Metro 2 seat convertible (it weighed next to nothing, the speedometer stopped at 85 and the straight-3 engine sounded like a swarm of bees that got angrier as you went faster), a Daewoo Lanos, a Kia Forte, a Scion xD (I got talked out of the iQ), and the biggest of the lot - a Toyota Avalon.
It’s that last thing that america (or at least California) has an issue with. We fucking love stop signs. If you have a stop sign every other block, your mpg is gonna be in the range matt gaetz would be interested in regardless of what car you drive.
Buddy, I don’t know when the last time you drove a car in the summer with no AC in dress clothes but I lived that for a few seasons and I’ll say that it’s a bigger problem than the stop signs lol
Idk man, I got comfy 50mpg from a 2 ton Mercedes-Benz with most of the trimmings. Well… it was too old to have AC.
The acceleration was utter dogshit tho. Comfy ride tho.
But it’s hard to make such a car street-legal in the US.